"FUCK YOU ALL" -Velvet Hammer (Re-Hollywood sucks)

[PeteeBee]

So here’s a thing about jokes. They’re entirely situational right? And we don’t all necessarily have the same view of what this situation (or in life, most situations) is/are. Like jwar started this to have a real conversation about things and process what to do with this information, potentially how to be a better friend and advocate as well as avoid accidentally offending. The accidental offense is on my mind all the time at least. Jokes detract from this. Maybe not a small one as an example of what you’re trying to communicate, but if you’re just popping in to make a joke, that is just detracting from the conversation and shuts down people’s willingness to open up and participate because all of a sudden their experience is potential joke bait and has already been made light of. No one wants to be the “no fun police/peace office” but there is a big difference between a comedian and a conversation with friends over their real hurt and confusion.

[Blackened Soul]

So here’s a thing about jokes. They’re entirely situational right? And we don’t all necessarily have the same view of what this situation (or in life, most situations) is/are. Like jwar started this to have a real conversation about things and process what to do with this information, potentially how to be a better friend and advocate as well as avoid accidentally offending. The accidental offense is on my mind all the time at least. Jokes detract from this. Maybe not a small one as an example of what you’re trying to communicate, but if you’re just popping in to make a joke, that is just detracting from the conversation and shuts down people’s willingness to open up and participate because all of a sudden their experience is potential joke bait and has already been made light of. No one wants to be the “no fun police/peace office” but there is a big difference between a comedian and a conversation with friends over their real hurt and confusion.

Also... in a conversation between friends.. when someone says hey that hurts stop that.. you should stop.

[BitchPudding]

Agreed.

God this whole thing hurts. I feel horrible for the victims.

Needless to say, my list of jaws to break has grown since shit started hitting the fan.

I love you all, be well.

[Jwar]

Adam, please don't apologize for trying to have this conversation that needs to be had. This thread wasn't what upset me today.

But for the record, I am married to AEN. I know how to take a joke. I think inappropriate jokes/dirty jokes/off color jokes/whatever are fucking hilarious - in the right moment, with the right people. I do not think that rape jokes on a stage with an audience full of strangers are EVER OK, unless you are joking about your own experiences. I don't want to see white people make jokes about lynching, for example. I don't want to see men joke about raping women. It just isn't funny ever. IDC.

What was going on in this thread was none of that. When you said that you'd have a bad time if someone was poking fun at your specific trauma, Rusty, I immediately think about how most women have shitty stories about men and power and sex. Some are worse than others and some women seem to handle them "better" than others (whatever that means), but most have them. That means that when you joke about assault or rape or harassment, MOST WOMEN ARE GONNA HAVE A BAD TIME SO JUST DON'T DO IT.

Louise, I just didn't want to upset you but I'm glad you saw what I was trying to do here at least. I wanted to have a discussion which I think is extremely important. I know many that have been hurt and I'm fucking tired of the way this world is. I want it to goddamn change.


I was once a member of Rue Morgue's forum (before I found this place). There was this enormous thread about Roman Polanski and how he had been hiding out in France (I think it was France) to avoid extradition by the USA for the last 30 some odd years. That's after pleading fucking guilty to the charge to having sex with a 13 year old who was under the influence. Let that sink in for a moment. 13.

The story goes. Roman was offered a young lady of 13by her own mother. The mother drugged her daughter and gave her to this man to rape and do whatever he wanted. This young woman now claims she was a willing participant. Willing at 13 to let this man take advantage of her while she was drugged. Obviously this is where the power of these monsters come into play. She was convinced by him (I believe) that what happened was ok and she accepted it on some level to the point of actually defending that piece of fucking shit. She in fact still defends him to this day. What has happened to this woman is an atrocity that I've seen time and time again. That monster has avoided jail and will die outside of a jail thanks to foreign governments allowing him to seek refuge. Thanks Switzerland.

My point is that I argued and yelled and screamed at these people on Rue Morgue about how this was wrong. They literally told me that it's not a bad thing and that she was wiling at fucking 13. I was so pissed that day I thought I was going to kill someone. I spent half the day arguing with people on the internet. Asking them if it were their child, would they feel the same way?

At the end of it, I left the forum and never returned as there was a bunch of scum bags there.


So, it seems in a lot of cases there's no justice for rape victims. Like my sisters, my mother, my mother in law, my ex, and all the other women I've known or know that have been raped. The only justice is that hopefully they burn in hell, if there is one.

My mothers brother, who raped her, died in a horrible car crash when he was 18. This was 20 plus years before I was born. When I found this out after she broke down and told me all the horrible stuff that had happened to her, I said "good. I'd kill him myself if he were still alive". At least that one case, the piece of shit cannot hurt anyone else.

[hbombgraphics]

comesect2.0 is taking a months break from ILF.

As you were.

Thank you!

I know I am late to the thankfulness party.

It wasn't just that it isn't a joke to many many people, it's the complete inability to read the flipping room that was making me insane.
If you want to boost your post count do it somewhere else.

Jwar (or your new name)
You are correct about the lack of justice, and anger is absolutely a valid response in some ways. I would caution that Violence is probably not a good workaround to our embarrassing justice system.

[D.o.S.]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/woman-says-roy-moore-initiated-sexual-encounter-when-she-was-14-he-was-32/2017/11/09/1f495878-c293-11e7-afe9-4f60b5a6c4a0_story.html

Ugh.

In before "The 70's were a different time maaaaan" nonsense.

Ha! I was just having this conversation today with a coworker. Not in the forgiving/permissive sense, but just saying that really did happen a lot more back then. A HUGE number of rock guys were known to have slept with 15-ish year old girls. So damn creepy.

Super creepy... but Starman, though.

[aens_wife]

You are correct about the lack of justice, and anger is absolutely a valid response in some ways. I would caution that Violence is probably not a good workaround to our embarrassing justice system.

This is kind of an important point for me. If we want to change the system, a LOT of the typical male cultural responses are going to have to change. Male violence and their physical size/strength is part of the reason sexual violence is so prevalent. Women are afraid they are gonna get killed if they say no/fight back/expose their attacker/harasser. So by responding to the problem with more of the same is just upholding the system that we are fighting against.

And to the "free speech at all costs" guys, I don't understand how you can say that everyone should be able to say anything to further the debate. All that says to me is that whoever is loudest/meanest gets to keep intimidating those with less power. I am not saying that difficult things shouldn't be said. I am saying that maybe we think about who we are saying them to, and how they might be perceived, and we say them carefully. We learn to say them in a way that will do the least damage. I don't know why that is such a contested concept. Why wouldn't we want to be kinder to those around us? Why is unchecked free speech a bigger/better ideal than compassion and empathy?

[Eivind August]

^ I haven't really engaged with this topic, maybe I should. But just wanted to say that this pretty much sums it up for me. Well written.

[D.o.S.]

Why wouldn't we want to be kinder to those around us?

Well is it this or is it the "people are so awful, duck people they're all shite" tack? If it can be both -- and let's not kid ourselves it's always both -- how do we square a "why don't we want to be kinder?" with "hey new poster die in a fire"?

Also I'm not editing your post because I'm ignoring it (or not reading it), just that is like some clarity on this particular point relative to the discussion at hand.

[aens_wife]

Why wouldn't we want to be kinder to those around us?

Well is it this or is it the "people are so awful, duck people they're all shite" tack? If it can be both -- and let's not kid ourselves it's always both -- how do we square a "why don't we want to be kinder?" with "hey new poster die in a fire"?

Also I'm not editing your post because I'm ignoring it, just that is like some clarity on this particular point.

Fair point. I am human and make mistakes. I can be both awful and kind. I know that people are not either/or, but both/all (in pretty much all ways).

BUT I am also not making the argument that I should be able to say whatever I want in any situation, which I have seen argued by lots of folks. I am trying hard and learning to be a kinder person who is more compassionate in my interactions online and off. Call me out on my shit. I am open to it and I'll try to do better. That is my point. Why argue for unlimited speech, at the expense of others? I don't understand how or why they think *that* kind of speech will further the discussion better than a empathetic approach.

[D.o.S.]

I mostly agree with that (which is why I didn't ask

There is a difference between free speech that has merit and free speech that doesn't, and it's fairly easy litmus test for most people.

[aens_wife]

I mostly agree with that (which is why I didn't ask

There is a difference between free speech that has merit and free speech that doesn't, and it's fairly easy litmus test for most people.

Exactly. We have seen free speech without merit (white supremacy/extreme sexism/etc) used to silence victims/targets so often lately. That's why I am so sensitive to the "free speech no matter what" crowd at the moment. Even if *your* motives are pure, surely you can see that not everyone's are...

[rustywire]

Adam, please don't apologize for trying to have this conversation that needs to be had. This thread wasn't what upset me today.

But for the record, I am married to AEN. I know how to take a joke. I think inappropriate jokes/dirty jokes/off color jokes/whatever are fucking hilarious - in the right moment, with the right people. I do not think that rape jokes on a stage with an audience full of strangers are EVER OK, unless you are joking about your own experiences. I don't want to see white people make jokes about lynching, for example. I don't want to see men joke about raping women. It just isn't funny ever. IDC.

What was going on in this thread was none of that. When you said that you'd have a bad time if someone was poking fun at your specific trauma, Rusty, I immediately think about how most women have shitty stories about men and power and sex. Some are worse than others and some women seem to handle them "better" than others (whatever that means), but most have them. That means that when you joke about assault or rape or harassment, MOST WOMEN ARE GONNA HAVE A BAD TIME SO JUST DON'T DO IT.

Poking fun at my specific trauma, making me being the victim of it into the butt of the joke, throwing it in my face to dig at me with malice is what I was talking about. That isn't funny, to me anyway. Intent, context matter. A stranger, in performance, who broaches the subject which happens to contain parallel principles or even a tangental correlation aint the same thing.

I do understand if you dont want to see/hear *certain identities* broach *certain topics* or critique who you view as collectively disadvantaged.
So I dont push your face in another view, trying to change minds. I still seek perspective; internal and external for personal growth.
Variety is the spice of life, however one isn't going to find every spice palatable...some in any context.

*proof read edit*
This post turned into an i/me/my, which is not what I prefer to contribute to this thread.
It's been open in a tab since Saturday--I've pasted the rest into a doc, perhaps for PM. I question its productivity in the moment.
I do want to say this:

I understand many people are so genuinely disgusted by racism and sexism they desperately want to not-be-racist or not-be-sexist and yet, tragically they wind up being racist and sexist in attempting to "right the wrongs" they see everywhere, with fervor. Something something when fighting monsters take care not to become one yourself.

One important thing to remember is these are not monsters, they are humans. Malfunctioning humans, even the predators.
Nevertheless they pose a clear and present threat to vulnerable individuals; what is the appropriate response in dealing with someone who should retain human rights despite their infringing on another's human rights? After identifying and rounding them up, then what?
2 more questions to pose: "do you believe redemption and reform are a viable option" and "what is your final solution?"

Raising awareness is what leads to education and understanding and with luck, progress...but blame-shifting slacktivism not so much.
Memes have been made of "whataboutism" and "not all" such and such. Also predatory "woke allies"
...
A moment to point out the new user slurping you for being a woman while trashing men for being men itt and disparaging us to make you feel better. That's become a [worn] cliche for an opportunistic abuser trying to find an "in". Not implying anything personally, just food for thought.

[hbombgraphics]

rustywire, I don't know that I can respond to everything in your post but the redemption question is something I would be interested in discussing more.

We expect many different types of criminals to re-enter society, I don't know that this is always realistic or fair with Sexual Predators, I also don't know that another option exists.

Would be curious to know what type of laws guidelines are in place in other parts of the world.

Also, think it was complete shit that victims were ever mocked in this thread or anywhere else for that matter, not sure what I can do to change it, but you have my love and support.

[UglyCasanova]

aens_wife: I assume you directed those replies to me (and rusty). I'm not saying "purposefully be an asshole", but I do believe you've got to allow people to be idiots. It's how they learn. Because it allows for dialogue. You calling them out on being assholes/idiots when they miss the mark entirely is how the dialogue gets started. Telling them to not be genuine/to not speak/write at all does fuck all.