Are you for or against anti-pirating laws?



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Re: Are you for or against anti-pirating laws?

Postby $harkToootth » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:01 am

I pay for music and media. But like Mr. Angle said, I do like 'Free'. If anything by not wanting to pay (and don't get me wrong, I have A LOT of physical media) I have found tons of gems on Bandcamp or free comps that I may otherwise have not paid attention to. Again, to be adamantly clear, they are literally 'Free' and marketed as such (see the comp SWALLOW THIS TURD for reference).

I would prefer less pirating but 1. I don't think a lot of musicians have a concept of actual 'value' (for their ideas; also, I don't think I do either) 2. To Tremolo's point, if you only want the sounds, then the price should not factor in a means of production for the physical media. 3. At the same time, the digital space and lack of monetary qualifiers that make up a product would have then become an exploitation of labor (you 'can' make more tunes and musicians feel like they have to [DJ Sprinkles explains this better than I ever could]).

If you wanted a succinct argument...you should support bands you like and make sure the artists can continue to make records. Go to shows, get shirts, get a tape etc. That said, I think fining some nubile an absurd amount of money for downloading a topical top 40 song is retarded and maybe even a human rights violation; I have no idea what a piracy law should look like but it's not that.

Generally speaking, I want artists to be supported but I think the government of my country (USA) is horribly ineffective at enforcing things it does not understand (I cite the Baseball Steroid 'Scandal' of the late 90's as an example or anything related to the FCC). Excuse the long post, I have the best intentions.
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Re: Are you for or against anti-pirating laws?

Postby Jesus Was a Robot » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:32 am

Honestly I think piracy laws are bullshit and here's why. First and foremost, you have the FBI saying they are going to enforce something through a warning system that in unenforceable. So you're threatening me with some kind of punishment of a huge monetary fine but there's literally zero way for you to stop me or anyone else and no one ever gets fined. That's smart. I've been seeing these fucking warning on VHS tapes since the 80's and yet I copied them. Who would have known? No one, that's who. They haven't done anything to stop piracy other than shut down sites every great once and awhile and that's probably 6 months on average of them being up.

So, do I think piracy is right? No, of course not. Do I think they overcharge so much for media now that it makes people want to steal? Maybe...that's debatable. People will do it anyway because everyone likes free. I've listened to albums on youtube for months before I ever decide to pay for them. I've watched movies on sites many, many times that were unavailable for streaming. I downloaded a metric fuck ton of music when that was a huge thing (I don't do that anymore and haven't for a decade), but still. I did. Hell most of the programs I use aren't legit. Even Windows.

I know I'm a dickhead and a cheap bastard. I can't help it goddamn it! Everything costs so much fucking money.


There's my justification. ;)
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Re: Are you for or against anti-pirating laws?

Postby rustywire » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:17 am

Mixed feelings on this subject.
First off re: youtube videos... can be monetized by the copyright owner, even if they didn't upload the work themselves. Or do what Prince did and have *everything* taken down he didn't want on youtube.

On the one hand, I side with artists and content CREATORS having autonomy and the agency to control access to their creations.
On the other hand, I do not side with supporting intellectual property hoarding, shelving, gatekeeping by non-creators solely in it for the money...while acknowledging the need for investment in the arts.

When Napster was *the thing* I was using it to scour the net for underground Biggie, Tupac, Eminem records/collabos/live/rare shiz/ and downloaded about 3500 mp3s...on dialup... at a time when that material couldn't otherwise be found in print, if at all. Throughout this process I was still spending about $200 a month on mostly underground hiphop artists via UGHH, HHI, HHS, Sandbox Automatic [even before getting into vinyl]. I was determined to do my part to *save the music industry* as I might like to be part of it some day. CDs I was buying were about $10.50 on average and many of them were self-releases [CDR or silverback] and lucrative for the artists involved. 17 years later, some of those $10.50 CDs are worth three figures.

That was about the time I really started getting into vinyl and replacing/buying up tapes Tower Records was liquidating at 3 for $10. There was a little local record store I was *determined to support and keep in business* prior to the vinyl renaissance of the late 00s. This store had new/used and even a small section of *pro bootlegs* of various live concerts and hard to find stuff. The fella who ran the store was a guru of sorts, to me...really helped broaden my horizons [sold me many of his personal original lps when the CD remasters were released!]

I support those merchants having protection to help keep them in business. Both online and brick/mortar establishments. I also support the right for a user to make personal copies of whatever they buy or have bought, providing they do not duplicate the works for distribution without permission/artist compensation. If you like what someone does then the best way to help insure they keep doing [it] is through financial support of their efforts. Be it an artist, audio company, eatery or whatever. Unfortunately most of my favorites are RIP. 2008-9 was a rough time for American businesses of the "luxury goods" distinction as budgets and disposable income got the clamps.

While many people born after 1990 seemingly prefer spending those bucks on "experiences" and outfit type gear, some are still actively trying to outfit their crate game/gear game and become experienced. The experiences provided by the ritual of playing records are underrated and will take you places not found on a map or in a trendy travel guide. Society as a whole, by in large no longer values the individual efforts of artists as a viable expense because music is now everywhere, more disposable than ever and with many people giving it away for free. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as it helps separate the wheat from the chaff, and highlight who has genuine passion for their craft, and the craft of their faves.
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Re: Are you for or against anti-pirating laws?

Postby rustywire » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:22 am

Also I've gotten to sample expensive software I would otherwise be priced out of exploring...using it for educational, not commercial purposes. Soon as you try to "go pro" I think it's best to be legit as possible because I believe in being a good neighbor/what goes around comes around.
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Re: Are you for or against anti-pirating laws?

Postby tremolo3 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:36 pm

rustywire wrote:Soon as you try to "go pro" I think it's best to be legit as possible


This is really smart, whether you are anti-Adobe, anti-Microsoft or anti-whatever. Getting money out of the big corps is for sure (cyber)punk, but offering professional services and having the tools you use properly licensed speaks really good of you.

However, free alternatives to most of the expensive and commercial stuff are out there, so being broke is not an excuse to not get something done without pirating a piece of software, it can be laziness or being short of time, but not being financially poor.

For personal and educational purposes, download that piece of annoying chinese cartoon crack.
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Re: Are you for or against anti-pirating laws?

Postby Disarm D'arcy » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:44 pm

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Re: Are you for or against anti-pirating laws?

Postby $harkToootth » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:10 pm

tremolo3 wrote:However, free alternatives to most of the expensive and commercial stuff are out there, so being broke is not an excuse to not get something done without pirating a piece of software, it can be laziness or being short of time, but not being financially poor.

100%. Open source alternative for software OR (and this does not happen ofter) free trials that stay 'free'. I got the the whole adobe creative suite because at one point they offered older versions for free (I think it was CS3 or something). You could go to their site and download the programs for nothing. Maybe the workflow and rendering is as good as the latest version but...free...

I was a big fan of bootleg VHS before the advent of OnDemand let alone streaming sites. This was because some films I was after would literally only come on once a decade and that was the only way to see/view them (if someone happened to be up at 04:00 AM on a weekday).

My house used to have a black box if anyone remembers those. My Dad wanted free HBO and Pay-Per-View. Although this totally back fired as my friends and I found the Spice Channel leading to a premature discussion of the birds and the bees. Also the only movie I remember watching on Pay-Per-View was ARMAGEDDON and that was punishment enough for pirating.
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Re: Are you for or against anti-pirating laws?

Postby jrfox92 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:16 pm

$harkToootth wrote:100%. Open source alternative for software OR (and this does not happen ofter) free trials that stay 'free'. I got the the whole adobe creative suite because at one point they offered older versions for free (I think it was CS3 or something). You could go to their site and download the programs for nothing. Maybe the workflow and rendering is as good as the latest version but...free...

They still have Photoshop (which I use all the time). :cool:
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Re: Are you for or against anti-pirating laws?

Postby rustywire » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:41 pm

There are so many options for budget-friendly audio solutions now.
Before it was pulled, Rebirth was $15 in the app store. A full license for Reaper is like $55 and they let you use it 4L even if you dont buy a license [they ask you dont use it for commercial purposes]. That's wsup. I much prefer that than getting Pro Tools or equivalent. SAW Studio was like $2500 a few years back...Reaper is easily on par with it.
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Re: Are you for or against anti-pirating laws?

Postby amishrobots » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:08 pm

(Sorry I'm coming in a bit late, and I have not read all of the previous comments)

"stealing" movies and music is just the visible tip of an enormous iceberg regarding the information age. Who controls the information, controls the people.

"Intellectual Property" has no value until it is shared.

An earlier poster mentioned Disney; their massive legal team, and lobbyists have mutated our system of copyright laws into the abomination that it is today.

I'm going to have to side with the sadly departed Aaron Swartz on these issues. It is about far more than downloading your favourite song illegally; it is about access to scientific research, legal information, and information about our own government. The same laws that musicians think they need to "protect" their brand value, are being used by large information supply companies, to profit by putting tollbooths on scientific research results that could potentially benefit all of mankind, and also on legal and political information which should, by the laws of our (USA) Constitution be freely available to the public. You cannot have any sort of true democracy, without freedom of information. What good is the right to vote on an issue, if you don't have proper access to information regarding that issue?
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Re: Are you for or against anti-pirating laws?

Postby amishrobots » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:29 pm

I believe that the Hollywood battle for profit control results in a chilling effect on creativity.
Elvis Presley created some fantastic music, so did Madonna; both were "pirates". At least one of them has been very vocal in her opposition to "piracy". Hypocrite.

That same battle, which has resulted in this rather insane idea of "intellectual property", and thus inspired much paranoia-based copyright legislation , affects far more than just music and video.

http://www.1000manifestos.com/aaron-swartz-the-guerilla-open-access-manifesto/ is a must-read on this subject.
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Re: Are you for or against anti-pirating laws?

Postby Andrew » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:37 am

JonnyAngle wrote:I like free

I dislike stealing

I think the value of music and movies is declining. Aka people are willing to pay less

I think subscription services are he new thing.

Netflix, Apple Music, etc. there's no value in owning music if you can listen to it whenever you want for pennies.


I feel cheap saying 'This' but...

...that.





I don't know about the cost of licensing, but if you make content easily accessible then I am more than happy to support it. Though I would be far more likely to buy digital music if the artist/band gets a decent cut of the purchase.
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Re: Are you for or against anti-pirating laws?

Postby BetterOffShred » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:11 pm

amishrobots wrote:(Sorry I'm coming in a bit late, and I have not read all of the previous comments)

"stealing" movies and music is just the visible tip of an enormous iceberg regarding the information age. Who controls the information, controls the people.

"Intellectual Property" has no value until it is shared.

An earlier poster mentioned Disney; their massive legal team, and lobbyists have mutated our system of copyright laws into the abomination that it is today.

I'm going to have to side with the sadly departed Aaron Swartz on these issues. It is about far more than downloading your favourite song illegally; it is about access to scientific research, legal information, and information about our own government. The same laws that musicians think they need to "protect" their brand value, are being used by large information supply companies, to profit by putting tollbooths on scientific research results that could potentially benefit all of mankind, and also on legal and political information which should, by the laws of our (USA) Constitution be freely available to the public. You cannot have any sort of true democracy, without freedom of information. What good is the right to vote on an issue, if you don't have proper access to information regarding that issue?


Pretty much this.

I downloaded a shitload of music through napster back in the day, but I was like 20.. As someone else said, I think the value of music and movies etc is declining as the market is saturated. Any other product that isn't protected, the prices go down when the market is saturated with options. Not movies though, it's still $30 for a BluRay of my little pony or some shit.

I agree that subscription services are the new wave (not really new, but people can get hip to it) as I have Amazon Prime and Netflix and I watch pretty much just that. I can listen to music on Amazon prime too, its a great service for pretty cheap.
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Re: Are you for or against anti-pirating laws?

Postby jrfox92 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:41 pm

BetterOffShred wrote:Any other product that isn't protected, the prices go down when the market is saturated with options. Not movies though, it's still $30 for a BluRay of my little pony or some shit.

This is one thing that I hate about movies in general.

It used to cost (and I mean in my lifetime, shut up IMan :whateva: ) less than $5.00 to see a blockbuster movie at the theater.

I can't even get in the door for less than $15.00, now. :facepalm:
This is one the reasons my dad and I agreed that, from now on, any time we want to go to the movies to watch something new, we'd just buy a movie on Amazon because, even though we'd rather not spend that money, at least we can consistently access that movie from then on rather than feel like we wasted a bunch of money on a fairly mediocre movie and cheap popcorn. :snax:
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Re: Are you for or against anti-pirating laws?

Postby Jesus Was a Robot » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:43 pm

Leave it of the folks across the pond to be pro pirating and anti capitalism. :) Sums things up nicely. You cheap fucks.
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