most apolitical/partial gov't. shutdown thread



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Re: The most apolitical thread from the standpoint of politi

Postby frodog » Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:42 am

benn roe wrote:I've been running a tabletop game shop for the last nine or ten years, and the whole time we've been combatting the boys' club mentality in gaming. So, I talk with a lot of women about their experiences with gaming, and for years I've been hearing the same story over and over. "I was always intrigued by D&D/Magic/Warhammer/whatever, but my brother/boyfriend/friends at school/whomever made it pretty clear that it wasn't for girls with the way they talked/acted/joked/whatever." You don't have to believe that something small like that can serve as a huge fucking barrier, just like Mitch McConnell doesn't have to believe in climate change, but it's true all the same.


Now you're bringing up climate change? Dude, I know that shit is real, like REAL. Don't try to lump me in with that guy.

I've been involved in a music collective for a decade, and we have always been welcoming to girls wanting to play. I've done everything I can at least, from conversations, lending instruments out, organizing rehearsal/recording sessions. The thing I've experienced is that they don't stick with it (this can go for guys too of course) often for various work/life situation reasons. I've never heard complaints about about a "boys club mentality", in fact most the bands around here have women as members. The local rock festival is run by two girls. Generally in the wide range of rock music, there are a lot of women doing well. They might have individually had some bad experiences in the scene, but I don't think any of that could be traced back to the name of a pedal.
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Re: The most apolitical thread from the standpoint of politi

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Re: The most apolitical thread from the standpoint of politi

Postby Benn Roe » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:52 pm

frodog wrote:Now you're bringing up climate change? Dude, I know that shit is real, like REAL. Don't try to lump me in with that guy.


Sorry. That was a low-blow, even if I don't think it was hyperbolic. It was just rude for me to evoke the name of such a piece of shit like that, when you're clearly not acting in bad faith. It was a tempting comparison because, in both cases, the experts (in this case, women in bands) overwhelmingly agree something is a problem, so your opinion (or mine, for that matter) shouldn't hold much weight, and the fact that you're so motivated to vocally disagree is pretty disheartening. I will concede that the odds of this particular TonePrint being exposed to someone who's not already relatively invested in playing music are slim, and maybe that's what you've been trying to say, but I maintain that it was still a fight worth fighting (especially since it only took the better part of an afternoon) because it's a slippery slope. If TC sent out a standee to all their retailers with a picture of the Steel Panther tryhard that designed that patch, thrusting his guitar under the caption "Pussy Melter: tone as wet as the girls in the front row", that would be serious and legitimate sexism standing at a common entrypoint to this world. The fact that the actual execution was more subtle doesn't diminish its insidiousness. In fact, in some ways it enhances it by systemically burying it.

frodog wrote:I've been involved in a music collective for a decade, and we have always been welcoming to girls wanting to play. I've done everything I can at least, from conversations, lending instruments out, organizing rehearsal/recording sessions. The thing I've experienced is that they don't stick with it (this can go for guys too of course) often for various work/life situation reasons. I've never heard complaints about about a "boys club mentality", in fact most the bands around here have women as members. The local rock festival is run by two girls. Generally in the wide range of rock music, there are a lot of women doing well. They might have individually had some bad experiences in the scene, but I don't think any of that could be traced back to the name of a pedal.


That's all obviously awesome, but surely you see that none of that happened overnight. Women are more involved in playing in bands than ever before, and that speaks to the industry moving in the right direction, but that wasn't a natural evolution. It took a lot of people taking stands and telling companies that bikini babes weren't a reasonable way to sell guitars and that asking women if they were buying stuff for their boyfriends was losing them sales. Not continuing that fight, especially when it involves an industry behemoth like TC is dangerous complacency, and actively opposing it is just shitty. Whether or not it's a joke is irrelevant; all that matters is its potential impact. In many ways, the huge influx of women into guitar culture over the last ten years or so is proof that fighting shit like this is working.

If Steel Panther wants to commission some small-time builder to put out 100 boring distortion pedals that they're selling on tour to fans who have already doubled-down on their whole shitty shtick, who cares? It's an echo chamber of assholes that we can all ignore. When one of the biggest gear companies in the world buys into it, left unchecked, it can have real consequences.
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Re: The most apolitical thread from the standpoint of politi

Postby frodog » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:12 pm

Yeah, let me clear up before I start I am not as motivated to argue the Steel Panther side as you might think. No hard feelings either, just a friendly debate where I do feel like I have some kind of point at the core.

– ...the experts (in this case, women in bands) overwhelmingly agree something is a problem, so your opinion (or mine, for that matter) shouldn't hold much weight, and the fact that you're so motivated to vocally disagree is pretty disheartening.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. How is it disheartening that I disagree, I guess initially about outrage culture/joke intolerance? Even though I'm not invested in this specific twitter controversy (or any other; don't have an account), I think my opinion should hold some weight. I don't know, it's just opinions. I'm saying that the posts I saw from Ted Leo, Michelle Zauner and a few others did not convince me that this was really that offensive. I respect them as musicians, but I think they used their voices here in a way that undermined what they maybe wanted to do. Imagine the audience laughter if Ted Leo said between songs, after looking at his/the bassists board: “The pedal world is disgusting! Just look at all the pedals with 'balls/ballz' names! Bros marketing for bros” (paraphrased quote, search ted leo balls). :lol:

I'd like to see a real study on being a woman in the music industry so that actual problems can be highlighted. I'm sure the answers would vary wildly based on where people are based/ where they tour/ genre/ economics/ drug use/ political affiliation/ ambition/ etc… I'd also like to see for instance a metal band call out some indie rockers for being 'too friendly'.

– Whether or not it's a joke is irrelevant; all that matters is its potential impact.

It does absolutely matter. The joke may not be ha-ha funny to you or me, but SP is an obvious parody band, veering towards shock-rock. Completely vanilla compared to many other bands. The lines might be blurred between real life and act, but so much entertainment is. Who decides which jokes could have a potential (bad) impact? Women in bands? The government? Where do you stop when it comes to shutting down jokes/offensive product names? Sure you can petition all the companies, go ahead, but it's a slippery slope as you say.

– In many ways, the huge influx of women into guitar culture over the last ten years or so is proof that fighting shit like this is working.

That is a stretch. A lot of girls I'd think from early days in the guitar's history were respected players, and certainly in the '70s many got into folk, rock, punk and new wave, and helped shape that scene and beyond, to this day. Let's not forget the acoustic guitar. Didn't seem to matter to them that some of the industry or other artists were lagging behind, old and uncool. But any big industry moves slowly I guess. Not saying that is a good thing, but on the plus side we now have all these small companies that make rad stuff! By the way, the US company that assembled the SP pedal (they build for many others too), and they sold like 2 – 3,000 not 100. But I guess I might safely ignore them as well, unless one (maybe even a woman!) ends up playing in a band and I listen to them and maybe buy their record.

It's like an Ouroboros, but apparently now it's so horrible to be on the tail end. But there needs to be a tail, not just the snake's head.
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Re: The most apolitical thread from the standpoint of politi

Postby Benn Roe » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:07 am

frodog wrote:I'm not sure what you're saying here. How is it disheartening that I disagree, I guess initially about outrage culture/joke intolerance? Even though I'm not invested in this specific twitter controversy (or any other; don't have an account), I think my opinion should hold some weight. I don't know, it's just opinions. I'm saying that the posts I saw from Ted Leo, Michelle Zauner and a few others did not convince me that this was really that offensive.


It's disheartening because the core of your argument regarding the Pussy Melter is that you know better than women when it comes to issues that affect only them. I don't think you believe that, but it's what you're saying.

frodog wrote:I respect them as musicians, but I think they used their voices here in a way that undermined what they maybe wanted to do. Imagine the audience laughter if Ted Leo said between songs, after looking at his/the bassists board: “The pedal world is disgusting! Just look at all the pedals with 'balls/ballz' names! Bros marketing for bros” (paraphrased quote, search ted leo balls). :lol:


That particular quote seems a little hyperbolic in this day and age, but it would've been completely accurate twenty years ago, and the sentiment is still valid. The pedal world has come a long way, but it's still overwhelmingly white- and male-dominated, so there are obviously still problems.

frodog wrote:I'd like to see a real study on being a woman in the music industry so that actual problems can be highlighted. I'm sure the answers would vary wildly based on where people are based/ where they tour/ genre/ economics/ drug use/ political affiliation/ ambition/ etc… I'd also like to see for instance a metal band call out some indie rockers for being 'too friendly'.


I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Yeah, people are different from one another. That's kind of the point. Many women came out and said the marketing behind that TonePrint was a punch to the gut for them because it represented every obstacle they ever encountered on their road to guitar goddess-dom, and all you heard was "wahhhh", refusing to believe that their experiences could be different from yours.

frodog wrote:It does absolutely matter. The joke may not be ha-ha funny to you or me, but SP is an obvious parody band, veering towards shock-rock. Completely vanilla compared to many other bands. The lines might be blurred between real life and act, but so much entertainment is. Who decides which jokes could have a potential (bad) impact? Women in bands? The government? Where do you stop when it comes to shutting down jokes/offensive product names? Sure you can petition all the companies, go ahead, but it's a slippery slope as you say.


This isn't a free speech issue. Literally nobody has suggested that sexist jokes should be outlawed. Everyone has the right to make jokes at the expense of whomever they want, and everyone else has the right to publically shame them for it. That's not a slippery slope; it's free speech working as intended. Social pressure has definitely been used to cause harm, but it trends toward progress. The slippery slope is not excercising that pressure, because you embolden hate when you indulge it. And excusing whatever dogshit spews from someone's mouth on the basis of it being a joke is definitely indulging it.

frodog wrote:That is a stretch. A lot of girls I'd think from early days in the guitar's history were respected players, and certainly in the '70s many got into folk, rock, punk and new wave, and helped shape that scene and beyond, to this day. Let's not forget the acoustic guitar. Didn't seem to matter to them that some of the industry or other artists were lagging behind, old and uncool. But any big industry moves slowly I guess. Not saying that is a good thing, but on the plus side we now have all these small companies that make rad stuff!


Yeah, dude, a lot of women have cut through the noise and earned respect through sheer determination. If the obstacles they faced didn't seem to matter to them, I'd guess that was by design. There are always pioneers too stubborn to let the world beat them down, but nobody should have to be that person just to live the life they want.

frodog wrote:By the way, the US company that assembled the SP pedal (they build for many others too), and they sold like 2 – 3,000 not 100. But I guess I might safely ignore them as well, unless one (maybe even a woman!) ends up playing in a band and I listen to them and maybe buy their record.


I'm pretty sure It's Electric is Czech. Either way, I stand corrected, but remain unconvinced that any of this means it wasn't a victory to get TC to disavow Steel Panther. Like all publicity stunts, it will fade into obscurity, and the much less obscure Flashback still won't have a Pussy Melter setting. It's regrettable that there are now thousands of Pussy Melter-branded paperweights floating around the internet, but they'll eventually all wind up collecting dust on the shelves of the right white men to ensure that nobody else has to bear witness. Steel Panther's existence is a net loss for humanity, to be sure, but going after the source is usually a lost cause in cases like this. You just have to mitigate their influence outside the echo chamber.

frodog wrote:It's like an Ouroboros, but apparently now it's so horrible to be on the tail end. But there needs to be a tail, not just the snake's head.


If you're saying that the world needs hate to retain balance, that seems pretty ill-informed.
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Re: The most apolitical thread from the standpoint of politi

Postby Bassist_Diver » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:19 pm

Fuck this weekend

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/long-re ... d=59280593

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/17/us/p ... orida.html

https://thehill.com/campaign-issues/414 ... a-governor

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Re: The most apolitical thread from the standpoint of politi

Postby Benn Roe » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:46 pm

It probably won't matter, but the Mississippi senate race suddenly seems like not a sure thing for Cindy Hyde-Smith, which is a curious turn of events. The Florida governor race hurts, though. Florida's supreme court is now even more fucked than the federal supreme court.
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Re: The most apolitical thread from the standpoint of politi

Postby Lurker13 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:52 pm

Florida has become such an embarrassment we should kick it out of the country.
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Re: The most apolitical thread from the standpoint of politi

Postby Faldoe » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:03 am

Trump in California. Poor Jerry Brown. It’s hard to watch him standing next to Trump.


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Re: The most apolitical thread from the standpoint of politi

Postby dubkitty » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:08 am

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Re: The most apolitical thread from the standpoint of politi

Postby friendship » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:10 am

Lurker13 wrote:Florida has become such an embarrassment we should kick it out of the country.


Let Area X take it.

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Re: The most apolitical thread from the standpoint of politi

Postby frodog » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:59 pm

Benn, I agree with a few of yr points but I think you go too far. We could apparently fill pages of this thread debating, but this silly case has already garnered enough attention. I wouldn't even be surprised if this whole thing was a fake outrage designed to get everyone involved some free publicity.

Sometimes a dumb joke is just a dumb joke. Some people find it funny, some disgusting. I concur that TC should be above that level, but calling it out as something sinister actually just gives it more power. Not everything is some grand conspiracy to oppress group x/y/z. How about fighting a cause that's worth fighting and that moves the needle somewhat, rather than trying to score cheap points on twitter?
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Re: The most apolitical thread from the standpoint of politi

Postby Benn Roe » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:54 am

That's a cynical take that doesn't seem likely at all, given how well-received women calling out sexism in male-dominated industries usually goes, but obviously I don't have any idea what really motivated any of the people involved in the original tweetstorm. All I know is that actions can oppress people with or without a conspiracy to do so on the part of the acters.
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Re: The most apolitical thread from the standpoint of politi

Postby frodog » Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:25 am

Oppressed by the pedal industry... a sad fate indeed.
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Re: The most apolitical thread from the standpoint of politi

Postby Dandolin » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:53 pm

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