The spite, hate, rage, apathy and mild irritation thread...

[friendship]

Humans are not going to change. We will continue to be prolifically cruel to each other and repeat the same cycles of violence in every single generation until we're extinct, which sadly will probably not happen before we manage to make everything else extinct too.

[Lurker13]

Humans are not going to change. We will continue to be prolifically cruel to each other and repeat the same cycles of violence in every single generation until we're extinct, which sadly will probably not happen before we manage to make everything else extinct too.

Try not to give in to despair.

I know I've said this before, sometimes I feel this way, too. But then I think of how the world has changed since the end of WWII. Europe hasn't had a major war, SE Asia has been at peace for 20 years, and the entire Western Hemisphere is officially at peace.

There is a lot of saber rattling going on now, however, and fear and greed tend to drive politics, just like they drive Wall Street. It always seems to be two steps forward, one step backwards, but as long as good people are willing to stand up for what they believe in, there is hope for a better future.

[Olin]

Gee I don't know what you're considering a major war, but the Bosnian genocide/Third Balkan War? Croatia's war for independence? Second Chechen war? Albanian civil war? Ukraine and Georgia have both had parts annexed very recently with plenty of bloodshed, SE Asia has had an enormous surge in violence over the last few years and people like Duterte are not helping that. "Officially at peace" doesn't mean much at all these days. There's no set number for what constitutes something a war, but these were all events that were certainly very major to the people that lived/still live there and you can't even mention South Ossetia in Georgia without being warned to not talk about it because it's still so fresh for them. The entire western hemisphere is at peace according to whom? No one is officially at war but Venezuela is in pretty dire straits, there's still rampant violence throughout several central/south American nations which have death tolls that far exceed plenty of other wars throughout history. I hope this doesn't come across as rude because there's certainly no malice in saying it, but it's a bit ignorant to make the claims you did.

I'm not saying everything is dire and this is the worst the world has ever been by any means, but we do have access to infinitely more information than we used to, so we're aware of things like Rwanda, Myanmar and North Korea to a much, much greater extent than we would have had 50 years ago and very easy to be pessimistic about the world when there's a surplus of information available. There's always been some heinous shit going down, it hasn't ever really stopped but we have consistently sympathised more with countries the west "like" and then proceeded to not really care about lesser countries, the only difference now is that we can independently go and see what's happening in those places/be told/made aware of them.

I'm pretty inclined to agree with friendship here, humans are humans and we may be able to eventually change some valuable things, like social classes, race issues, gender issues, etc, we'll never, ever stop being humans and the cycle of violence will continue until someone ends it all.

[Lurker13]

I said the world is becoming a better place, I didn't say it was currently a paradise.

Yes, the Balkans was a nightmare in the Nineties, and the Russians have attacked their neighbors. But if you look at the history of Europe, it was one of almost constant warfare on a multinational scale that went far beyond the scale of what is going on today, until the end of WWII.

Who are you claiming is at war in SE Asia? Vietnam? Cambodia? Laos? Thailand? Singapore? Malaysia? Indonesia? Yes, there is a civil war in Myanmar, but SE Asia is nothing like it was in the 20th Century.

You might want to brush up on history before you call me ignorant.

And yes, the entire Western Hemisphere has been at peace since 2016.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/26/opinion/colombias-milestone-in-world-peace.html

[Lurker13]

Okay, let me put my reasoning in a nutshell - bad shit still happens, but not on the scale it used to consistently happen on. That gives me hope for the future.

[Olin]

I'd love some examples of how much worse you think Europe was pre-WW2 compared to post, because the only way you can truly claim it was better is in numbers, which would dwarf anything that isn't WW2. I can assure you I have looked at the history of Europe, it's why I wouldn't make such a brash claim that it hasn't had a major war since 1945 and insult the thousands upon thousands who have died, lost their homes, lost their countries and had their identities stripped since then. I said that it's ignorant to claim Europe has had no major wars since WW2, which I adhere to, it absolutely is ignorant to say that.

Nowhere did I say that SE Asia is at war, I said it's seen a rise of violence of the last few years, which is absolutely true, just because they're not "at war" doesn't mean there isn't conflict and that everything is on the up and up. I also didn't contest whether or not the western hemisphere is "at peace" or not, I said according to whom and followed up with a nation who would very, very strongly disagree with your statement, and is isn't the only one. Being "officially at peace" means very little when it comes to atrocities, death tolls, living standards and actual peace.

If everything is going to be compared to the biggest and worst war we've ever seen on the planet, it's easy to claim progress is being made, we'd have to have nuclear annihilation before we could claim it's any worse. This isn't meant to be pessimistic, everything follows the same cycle it always has, but with more people so the scale has to match. I don't think more dead people should make a situation better or worse when it happens. Imagine trying to argue that the Armenian Genocide was "better" than the Holocaust because it wasn't as grand in scope. Imagine arguing that the Holocaust was worse, it doesn't work like that and if that's how we're going to measure it then the ever-rising population will dwarf previous events with ease in future wars. I don't think you can adjust tragedy for inflation and don't think that anything is any different to how it ever has been. The game stays the same, just the way we play it changes.

[ibarakishi]

I

Who are you claiming is at war in SE Asia? Vietnam? Cambodia? Laos? Thailand? Singapore? Malaysia? Indonesia? Yes, there is a civil war in Myanmar, but SE Asia is nothing like it was in the 20th Century.

You might want to brush up on history before you call me ignorant.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/26/opinion/colombias-milestone-in-world-peace.html

Im not going to call you ignorant. But i think what you are trying to say is a gross simplification and generalisation of the general state of what is happening now in SE Asia. Thailand's government is at war and has been with the south for many years. They don't wish to officially declare this, and maintain that it is just 'isolated situations', but they are, and have been, literally fighting a war to erase all history and freedom of thought from the south to replace it with nationalist ideas and power. This isn't disputable, despite the military trying to propose a narrative that says it should be. Nor is the fact that literally Thailand was overthrown by the military under the excuse that they would restore order to Thailand, when in reality they just wanted to destroy all further progress towards a more democratic system that separated its government processes further from the corrupt and obscene filth that is the royal family (and all the monopolies and widespread influence that umbrellas over and around it). Political protestors and supporters of free speech die and disappear here. Our friends have died or disappeared. Some of the brightest people of Thailand are political refugees. Lese majeste law is real. And there is no government here anymore, other than the military control and its law which continues to be institutionalised and cemented into becoming Thai law through gang culture and mentalities.

And this is without me going into Myanmar... I don't have enough space nor would anyone likely read through it all. But to put it shortly i guess, Myanmar, as with Thailand, is not something you are actively going to have a lot of resource material to reference or read about what is truly happening right now, let alone what has been happening for years. Again, the government has waged war against its own people to erase what it considers to be a social sickness and plague to the ultra-nationalist government (aka genocide) against many, many, many groups. My friend was considered one of these groups. And i know that he would feel sad, to put it lightly, to hear someone say that his country, and the world, was progressively getting better as he has slowly watched the government increase its cleansing programs to consciously target and rape, dismember, burn, torture, and kill nearly everyone he has ever loved or known in the world for the past 40+ years, many of which he witnessed himself, while he has continued to be a target for abuse and exploit for trying to man a simple and honest living in the world.

I think i understand what you are trying to say in spirit, which is that we have more hope than ever to actually do something good for ourselves as a collective people, on a larger scale than ever before despite the horror that constantly confronts us. But i think that your reasoning for your statements is a little detached from what is happening now and in the past, which isn't to be blamed really due to a huge gap of information that leaves this side of the world, let alone the lack of translation that is done (and this without addressing the blatant lack of interest in what is happening over here by the west in general). I constantly relay news and things happening to people that i know abroad about things over here, because they otherwise would never get out through normal media sensors that the country is insanely strict about. There are whole networks of people who work on these issues to keep records and information at least documented within their own borders. Most of SE Asia is now under falling to some form of hyper-nationalism after being abused economically and politically by democratic powers for years now, and this sway in social consciousness here is showing in the current forms of government and political groups that are easily stealing power for themselves. Things are not better here as a whole compared to even 3 years ago. They are way worse on a humanitarian scope, and are slated to continue to lurch and crawl that way for quite a while in the near future. But that isn't to say that things are hopeless or without value like you already said. There is hope. But i think it is really important personally that people that are marginalised and suffering not simply be swept aside in comparisons or contests of 'which is worse or better'. Because when populations embrace this mindset, it is truly the death of hope for those groups, and thus their populations. It is also a denial of their struggle, which is anything but positive for those people.

I am saying all of this without any intention of trying to come across as an expert in these fields, as there are others that i know who are truly experts that i would feel embarrassed to claim stand as tall as who have dedicated their entire lives to these fields in both spirit and in hard labor. I just hope that my words will provide some further consideration, as this is a matter that hits close to home for me in a lot of ways. And as always, if people want more information or have questions about the state of things, i will try my best to answer. If i don't have an answer that i am somewhat confident in, then i will try to find someone who does.

[Lurker13]

I'd love some examples of how much worse you think Europe was pre-WW2 compared to post, because the only way you can truly claim it was better is in numbers, which would dwarf anything that isn't WW2.

WWI - 21 million dead
The Napoleanic Wars - at least 3 million dead
Here is a list of European wars. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe

I am in no way trying to trivialize what has happened in Europe since WWII, especially in the Balkans. But we have made advances in international relations, especially through the UN, that have allowed us to NOT let the Balkans turn into WWIII.

Nowhere did I say that SE Asia is at war, I said it's seen a rise of violence of the last few years, which is absolutely true, just because they're not "at war" doesn't mean there isn't conflict and that everything is on the up and up. I also didn't contest whether or not the western hemisphere is "at peace" or not, I said according to whom and followed up with a nation who would very, very strongly disagree with your statement, and is isn't the only one. Being "officially at peace" means very little when it comes to atrocities, death tolls, living standards and actual peace.

Actually, being at peace does mean a lot. The things you mention are bad, but are not equivalent to shooting wars and insurrections, where people are being killed en masse. If you can end a war, you can begin to work on the other problems.

If everything is going to be compared to the biggest and worst war we've ever seen on the planet, it's easy to claim progress is being made, we'd have to have nuclear annihilation before we could claim it's any worse.

I'm comparing post-WWII history to history up until the end of WWII, not to WWII alone. And I'm talking about frequency, and an attitude of seeing wars as vehicles of national glory.

I think we've learned to govern ourselves better, because no one wants another WWII. But it's not just about lessening conflicts, it's about improvements in things like health care and education. There are more opportunities based on merit, everything doesn't just come down to what family you were born into. Nations that were historically run by autocrats are now democracies. I see these things as progress.

[Lurker13]

I

Who are you claiming is at war in SE Asia? Vietnam? Cambodia? Laos? Thailand? Singapore? Malaysia? Indonesia? Yes, there is a civil war in Myanmar, but SE Asia is nothing like it was in the 20th Century.

You might want to brush up on history before you call me ignorant.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/26/opinion/colombias-milestone-in-world-peace.html

Im not going to call you ignorant. But i think what you are trying to say is a gross simplification and generalisation of the general state of what is happening now in SE Asia. Thailand's government is at war and has been with the south for many years. They don't wish to officially declare this, and maintain that it is just 'isolated situations', but they are, and have been, literally fighting a war to erase all history and freedom of thought from the south to replace it with nationalist ideas and power. This isn't disputable, despite the military trying to propose a narrative that says it should be. Nor is the fact that literally Thailand was overthrown by the military under the excuse that they would restore order to Thailand, when in reality they just wanted to destroy all further progress towards a more democratic system that separated its government processes further from the corrupt and obscene filth that is the royal family (and all the monopolies and widespread influence that umbrellas over and around it). Political protestors and supporters of free speech die and disappear here. Our friends have died or disappeared. Some of the brightest people of Thailand are political refugees. Lese majeste law is real. And there is no government here anymore, other than the military control and its law which continues to be institutionalised and cemented into becoming Thai law through gang culture and mentalities.

And this is without me going into Myanmar... I don't have enough space nor would anyone likely read through it all. But to put it shortly i guess, Myanmar, as with Thailand, is not something you are actively going to have a lot of resource material to reference or read about what is truly happening right now, let alone what has been happening for years. Again, the government has waged war against its own people to erase what it considers to be a social sickness and plague to the ultra-nationalist government (aka genocide) against many, many, many groups. My friend was considered one of these groups. And i know that he would feel sad, to put it lightly, to hear someone say that his country, and the world, was progressively getting better as he has slowly watched the government increase its cleansing programs to consciously target and rape, dismember, burn, torture, and kill nearly everyone he has ever loved or known in the world for the past 40+ years, many of which he witnessed himself, while he has continued to be a target for abuse and exploit for trying to man a simple and honest living in the world.

I'm sorry about your friends. I'm sorry, I had no idea these atrocities were going on in Thailand. We get even less news about Myanmar. Their civil war seems to have been going on forever, but we seldom hear about it.

The point I was trying to make was to compare SE Asia during the 20th Century - colonialism, WWII and the Japanese occupations, communist revolutions, counter revolutions, the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, the Vietnam-Cambodian War, the Chinese invasion of Vietnam; when the whole region seemed to be in a state of almost non-stop oppression and warfare - to today, when it seems much more peaceful, at least to an outsider.

On a personal note, I've visited Vietnam four times in this millennium, and it has always been a very friendly, safe place. Most Americans have no idea what happened to Vietnam under the Japanese occupation.

I think i understand what you are trying to say in spirit, which is that we have more hope than ever to actually do something good for ourselves as a collective people, on a larger scale than ever before despite the horror that constantly confronts us. But i think that your reasoning for your statements is a little detached from what is happening now and in the past, which isn't to be blamed really due to a huge gap of information that leaves this side of the world, let alone the lack of translation that is done (and this without addressing the blatant lack of interest in what is happening over here by the west in general). I constantly relay news and things happening to people that i know abroad about things over here, because they otherwise would never get out through normal media sensors that the country is insanely strict about. There are whole networks of people who work on these issues to keep records and information at least documented within their own borders. Most of SE Asia is now under falling to some form of hyper-nationalism after being abused economically and politically by democratic powers for years now, and this sway in social consciousness here is showing in the current forms of government and political groups that are easily stealing power for themselves. Things are not better here as a whole compared to even 3 years ago. They are way worse on a humanitarian scope, and are slated to continue to lurch and crawl that way for quite a while in the near future. But that isn't to say that things are hopeless or without value like you already said. There is hope. But i think it is really important personally that people that are marginalised and suffering not simply be swept aside in comparisons or contests of 'which is worse or better'. Because when populations embrace this mindset, it is truly the death of hope for those groups, and thus their populations. It is also a denial of their struggle, which is anything but positive for those people.

I am saying all of this without any intention of trying to come across as an expert in these fields, as there are others that i know who are truly experts that i would feel embarrassed to claim stand as tall as who have dedicated their entire lives to these fields in both spirit and in hard labor. I just hope that my words will provide some further consideration, as this is a matter that hits close to home for me in a lot of ways. And as always, if people want more information or have questions about the state of things, i will try my best to answer. If i don't have an answer that i am somewhat confident in, then i will try to find someone who does.

I appreciate what you are saying. I did not know Thailand had become so bad, and I wish I could help, and I apologize for not being up on the situation.

But again, my point is that the world is still troubled, but not on the scope it used to be, and I believe we are slowly making progress. I am not trying to trivialize what is happening there or elsewhere. What I am trying to say is that I do believe we are evolving, albeit slowly. If I can do anything to help you, let me know.

[Olin]

Ibarakishi's post is brilliant and I was hoping he would chime in to give more detail than I'm able to about SE Asia.

I stand by my point of "tragedy cannot be adjusted for inflation" and that you can't measure it by numbers alone. If you are going by numbers alone, then okay, let's go back to Venezuela, who have several dozen thousand homicides yearly, far, far more than plenty of wars. The time I spent there was enough to convince me that if it isn't considered a war, I don't know what is. Every single night is filled with automatic gunfire, murders were barely reported at all on the television, food is rationed, people were quite literally starving to death or butchering each other for flour and there are no medical supplies. So okay, no, it's not called a war, but I am failing to see the difference, and if there is one, what does it matter? It certainly fulfils the criteria of "shooting wars" and insurrections, all of which are thwarted by a heinously corrupt government. Numbers do not matter in these contexts. It isn't completely unique either there, the point is that "at war" and "at peace" are very vague titles which have historically not made a huge amount of impact on how things actually happen.

This is what I mean about the game changing. Wars were simpler back in the middle/dark ages and before because of national glory etc, and it's no different now, we just dress it up as "intervention" instead. Countries were invaded for resources a thousand years ago, countries are still invaded for resources now, back then it was dressed for national glory, now it's dressed up for "peacekeeping".

Some countries have improvements in those areas, some are going completely backwards and some are still so fucked up from the past that they're pretty much at the same point they were. Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Dubai have certainly both developed, they have better healthcare and are more democratic now, but still openly practice slavery, their rise to power has fuelled their arrogance and their racism towards Bangladeshi's/Pakistani's continues to be utterly abhorrent. I don't think these are objectively good things that are happening, nor are they the building blocks of a better future, it can't be that universal. Everyone wants their resources, everyone wants their money, they'll adapt to what helps make that happen with the time. It's like these huge oil companies switching to eco-friendly stuff, it isn't because their morals suddenly got the better of them, it's because that's where the money is, it also just so happens to be something objectively good. Seems that's how the rest of the world works too.

Again, not a fatalistic "we should all just kill ourselves to save the time" type thing, I just don't see anything really being done any differently to how it always has. It's always been a cycle to various degrees of success, and we're in the middle of one now.

[Jwar]

You guys broke this thread.

I can't even begin to read all that.

[comesect2.0]

images.jpg

"in the coffin of ice, I sleep naked
in the tunnel of fire, I drink"
-F.X. LEACH

"but I dont want comfort I want God I want poetry I want real danger i want freedom i want goodness i want sin"
-A Brave New World

[friendship]

Sorry that my gross fatalism derailed the thread. I think I need to be more careful about how my negativity effects others. It helps relieve the pressure to express it, but maybe I'm also spreading it around.

[Olin]

Why the fuck people describe things as "minty" instead of "mint" if it don't smell like mints.

[Lurker13]

Sorry that my gross fatalism derailed the thread. I think I need to be more careful about how my negativity effects others. It helps relieve the pressure to express it, but maybe I'm also spreading it around.

Don't worry about it, venting is what this thread is for.

That conversation would have happened sooner or later, and the fact that it became painful indicates it was worth having, at least from my POV. An echo chamber is painless, but a free exchange of ideas is meaningful.

Edit: but I'll add that it was never my intention to cause anyone pain, if I did, then I apologize.