856 for ZELLERSASN



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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby Jwar » Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:41 pm

You do that Scooter. You do that.
"I do not have the ability to think rationally 90% of the time and I also change my mind at the drop of a hat".

-JWAR :)
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby MrNovember » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:22 pm

Just got mine today after it got held up in the Postal strike here for at least a week. I'm way too tired to actually dig into it and figure it out right now though. Maybe this weekend
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby hotfat » Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:49 am

An ENV parameter question:

Given that the 856 has been power cycled then "cleared" by pressing and holding the STRIDE/ABS/UNI switch down and pressing the FADE/GAIN/FBK switch down twice, having the FREE/R=B/AREC switch in the middle (R=B) position, and the N1/N2/N3 switch in the N1 position:

1) When I record a new Loop and it starts to play back there is no amplitude envelope applied to the Loop. The Loop simply plays back at the same amplitude from beginning to end.

2) If I jiggle the ENV knob and return it to the 12:00 position, the Loop playback will audibly fade in at the beginning and fade out at the end each time the Loop iterates. This is expected behavior according to the manual.

So far, so good. However ...

3) If I turn the ENV knob to its counter-clockwise minimum the amplitude envelope disappears entirely. NO fade in at the beginning as the manual suggests should happen. The Loop just plays back at the same amplitude all the way through, each time.

Furthermore ...

4) If I turn the ENV knob to its clockwise maximum there is NO fade out at the end of the Loop and, again, the Loop just plays back at the same amplitude, beginning to end.

The manual from the MA website (856 v1.1) leads me to believe that I should expect a slow fade in/fast fade out with the ENV knob at minimum and a fast fade in/slow fade out with the ENV knob at maximum. What am I missing here?

Probably just the first of many bonehead questions from this new user.
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby hotfat » Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:49 pm

OK, so it turns out that both minimum and maximum on the ENV knob result in NO amplitude envelope applied to the audio segment being played.
However ...
Setting the ENV knob at 9 o'clock results in slow fade in/fast fade out.
Setting the ENV knob at 3 o'clock results in fast fade in/slow fade out.
And, as the manual states, setting the ENV knob at 12 o'clock results in slow fade in/slow fade out.
From the front panel it appears that there may be as few as 7 discrete settings for this parameter.
Any confirmation or disagreement on this?
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby hotfat » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:00 pm

Hope this is helpful for others. Ignore if not!

856 FOR ZELLERSASN Expression Jack details (2018 version):

There is a block of DIP switches inside the pedal that allow you to configure the Expression jack for use with either an expression pedal (and possibly control voltage between 0 and 3.3vdc) or a couple of remote switches that duplicate the Record and Play footswitches on the unit.

By default, the units are shipped configured for use with an expression pedal.

You'll have to remove the 4 machine screws that hold the bottom cover on and use a paper clip or similar to set the tiny switches.

********************************
* For Expression pedal/CV use: *
********************************

DIP Switch settings
1, 3 = ON
2, 4, 5 = OFF

1/4" TRS Phone plug wiring
Tip = Control Voltage to pedal
Ring = +3.3vdc from pedal
Sleeve = Gnd

Quote from Scott (Montreal Assembly):
"It's easy to use an expression pedal with the 856. Simply plug one into the 1/4 inch jack closest to the DC jack. Then to choose what knob to control with the expression pedal, simply hold down the FBK switch while turning the knob you want to control. After you let go of FBK, the expression pedal should now control that knob."


******************************
* For Remote Footswitch use: *
******************************

DIP Switch settings
1, 3 = OFF
2, 4, 5 = ON

1/4" TRS Phone plug wiring
Tip = Rec, Left footswitch
Ring = Play, Right footswitch
Sleeve = Common Gnd

Momentary contact switches, Normally open.
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby zoooombiex » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:34 pm

Can anyone out there weigh in on whether their Stride function is working properly as described in the manual? The tourbox version didn't seem to work as described and now the one I bought is not either.

My understanding is that with the toggle set to STRIDE and the POS knob set to unity, it should do nothing
With STRIDE + POS knob CCW, each time the loop repeats it should start a little earlier in the loop
With STRIDE + POS knob CW, each time the loop repeats it should start a little later in the loop

Mine does not do that. I assume it's user error, but I feel like I've tried lots of combinations of other settings that might be related (e.g., length, offset) to no avail.

Relatedly, on Jwar's tourbox 856, I seem to recall that STRIDE only worked on repeats and not the base sample. But on the one I just bought it isn't working on the repeats either.
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby multi_s » Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:27 am

Hi guys,

Sorry for the slow reply, we are starting to move the studio which is a bit of a hassle the last few days/next week.

One issue is that we did not have the 1.2 fw manual up actually in the end, not sure why we did not get more complaints on the last run. The manual is similar though so i dont think it changes much for the few q's above, although it does have the expression and external footswitch info.

here is the link to 1.2, it is also on the site now http://mtlasm.blogspot.com/p/856-for-ze ... fw-12.html

i will be updating it with some videos in the next few days as well


The stride will only affect repeats as you said. For example, it is not that every beat the slice of the sample advances, it is that the slice used for the repeats within the beat advances. So if you turn up repeats it should work/have an effect.

EDIT: Sorry there is no bug with N1 stride. I was not thinking correctly last night. For N1 the TMPO/REP knob adjust the tempo, you cannot add repeats to N1 with the interface. therefore there is no stride adjustment. You can up the repeats of N1 through MIDI and it will stride. The CC number for N1 repeats is 14.

The firmware on the last 2 runs has been the same so it could be that with JWARS tourbox you were simply using N2 or N3. If those still don't work for you though please email me at mtl.asm@gmail.com
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby zoooombiex » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:57 pm

I know with the tourbox version I concluded that it was working on repeats (and thus only on N2 & N3 and not N1). But it doesn't seem to be working the same way on the one I just bought. It's totally possible I'm missing something but I did a little video to try to demonstrate/troubleshoot. As shown, the stride just seems to be adjusting the start point (like the ABS setting) but then when the loop repeats the sample start point doesn't change.

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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby hotfat » Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:53 pm

The way I HEAR it, it seems the STRIDE parameter only affects the start position of repetitions of P1 (NOT the first "sounding" of P1) and ALL instances of P2 and P3 INSIDE of the BEAT (or Loop?) length. The affect of the STRIDE parameter appears to be "reset" each time at the beginning of the Loop, then reasserted during the Loop. This makes it SOUND the same each time it's heard.

Am I off base?

I'm still very confused about the terms used to describe the audible elements P1, P2 and P3 and their multiple iterations. LOOP, PLAYBACK, REPEATS, NOTES and SAMPLE seem to be thrown around carelessly and applied to different and identical functional units. I think the manual could really use some editing to homogenize the terms and use them consistently. The details of P1, P2 and P3 and how/when they are audible might be easier to understand with a block diagram or some kind of visual representation.

Who or what is "N.B."? (manual section for FREE/QUANT/SKIP switch)

I still don't understand the following from the manual:

"When FREE/R=B/AREC is in FREE mode, the (TMPO/REP) knob controls the tempo so that in fully counter-clockwise position, there are 40 loops per minute (40 playings of N1) and in fully clockwise position, there are 240 loops per minute."

How can there be FORTY 20 second long loops played back in one minute, let alone TWO HUNDRED FORTY?

Any clarification?
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby zoooombiex » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:28 pm

hotfat wrote:I still don't understand the following from the manual:

"When FREE/R=B/AREC is in FREE mode, the (TMPO/REP) knob controls the tempo so that in fully counter-clockwise position, there are 40 loops per minute (40 playings of N1) and in fully clockwise position, there are 240 loops per minute."

How can there be FORTY 20 second long loops played back in one minute, let alone TWO HUNDRED FORTY?

Any clarification?


The loops overlap each other. So if it's 40 x 20 second loops, then every 1.5 seconds a new instance of the loop will start playing, and each instance plays out the full length of the loop (assuming length is set to max). If it's 240 x 20 second loops, then every .25 seconds a new instance of the loop will start playing. In either case, you end up with multiple instances of the loop playing over top of each other with staggered start times according to the tempo setting.

Note that the use of the word "tempo" is sort of misleading. Usually that refers to the speed at which the content of the loop itself is played back. But here "tempo" is more like the tempo of an LFO that controls how often the loop gets triggered for playback.
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby hotfat » Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:47 pm

Thanks Zoooombiex!

Very clear explanation. The manual, and probably a few more users, could certainly benefit from this information.
This is not the most transparent gizmo and any insights are appreciated!
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby multi_s » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:43 am

zoooombiex wrote:
hotfat wrote:I still don't understand the following from the manual:

"When FREE/R=B/AREC is in FREE mode, the (TMPO/REP) knob controls the tempo so that in fully counter-clockwise position, there are 40 loops per minute (40 playings of N1) and in fully clockwise position, there are 240 loops per minute."

How can there be FORTY 20 second long loops played back in one minute, let alone TWO HUNDRED FORTY?

Any clarification?


The loops overlap each other. So if it's 40 x 20 second loops, then every 1.5 seconds a new instance of the loop will start playing, and each instance plays out the full length of the loop (assuming length is set to max). If it's 240 x 20 second loops, then every .25 seconds a new instance of the loop will start playing. In either case, you end up with multiple instances of the loop playing over top of each other with staggered start times according to the tempo setting.

Note that the use of the word "tempo" is sort of misleading. Usually that refers to the speed at which the content of the loop itself is played back. But here "tempo" is more like the tempo of an LFO that controls how often the loop gets triggered for playback.


yes exactly. it is the tempo of say the start of the entire sequence, which we refer to as loop in the manual. i do not think the word tempo is misleading if you think of it that way but I will explain it more clearly in the manual. you could say the rate at which the start of the loop occurs per unit time, in this case per minute.

the loops can overlap, there is no problem, even if they are longer than 1/tempo.


hotfat wrote:Who or what is "N.B."? (manual section for FREE/QUANT/SKIP switch)


N.B. is an abbreviation of nota bene, meaning "special note" or something similar. So you can use it to draw attention to a particularly useful piece of information. it is often used like you might drop an I.E. ( meaning for example) etc.

The playback of a note if you desire can alternate pitch. This is the function of P1/P2/P3 switch. If you want all the repeats of a certain note to have the same pitch you can just hold down UNI while adjusting the Pitch knob then all repeats will have the same pitch.

If you want them to alternate you have to turn up the repeats so that there are some repeats played. P1 will affect the first "sounding" of the note to use your terminology and also the 4th, 7th 10th etc. P2 the 2nd 5th 8th... P3 the 3rd 6th 9th...

It is as if the Note selected has 3 Pitches it automatically alternates through if it is repeated within the loop.

It does not mean that each time the beat light flashes (signalling the beginning of a loop) the pitch will alternate. It means the repeats within the loop alternate.

If you would prefer this we will make some alts firms in late January so any input is welcome.
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby multi_s » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:58 am

zoooombiex wrote:I know with the tourbox version I concluded that it was working on repeats (and thus only on N2 & N3 and not N1). But it doesn't seem to be working the same way on the one I just bought. It's totally possible I'm missing something but I did a little video to try to demonstrate/troubleshoot. As shown, the stride just seems to be adjusting the start point (like the ABS setting) but then when the loop repeats the sample start point doesn't change.




Thanks for this video, i appreciate that you took the time to make it and it makes it much easier to explain what is going on.

You need to turn up the repeats to have it stride more.

The basic concept is everytime the BEAT light flashed you will here the same sequence of transformations on the OG recording.

So if there is say 1 repeat, as it seems in your video, you get the original sounding, then 1 repeat with the start offset (strided?)

The next LOOP will be the same. The stride only affects repeats within the LOOP, it is striding from teh original "sounding" of the note.

So if you want to hear a lot of striding, turn up the repeats. each repeat it will move an additional amount, as determined by the stride knob.

Again as in the above post if you prefer some other behavior we can incorporate it into an update, we are already set to release one late January for 856 so any input willbe considered.

And also sorry for the slow reply we are moving at the moment but by next week we should be back to normal.

RE it worked in the Tourbox differently... Unfortunately since JWARs unit went MIA we can never know for sure, but it is the same binary on both runs i dont think the behavior would have been different.

s
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby hotfat » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:33 am

Scott,

"It does not mean that each time the beat light flashes (signalling the beginning of a loop) the pitch will alternate. It means the repeats within the loop alternate."

I understood that from the start. That was clear.

I was mostly confused by the way P1, P2 and P3 are piled up by default, making it kind of difficult to understand what's going on with the TMPO/REP knob. Finding out how to spread out the P1, P2 and P3 "voices" with the DELTA knob helped with that.

It seems that there are a finite number of "repeats" that can be selected. I hear a maximum of 16 total iterations of the P1, P2 and P3 "voices", 6 of P1 and 5 each of P2 and P3. Is this correct? If so, a tweek of the resolution/scaling of the TMPO/REP knob might be useful as it's difficult to make selections on the minimum side and the selections are farther apart on the maximum side. I hope that's clear.

Just curious, what's "the Tourbox"?

Thanks for taking the time to respond, Scott!
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby zoooombiex » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:03 pm

multi_s wrote:
zoooombiex wrote:I know with the tourbox version I concluded that it was working on repeats (and thus only on N2 & N3 and not N1). But it doesn't seem to be working the same way on the one I just bought. It's totally possible I'm missing something but I did a little video to try to demonstrate/troubleshoot. As shown, the stride just seems to be adjusting the start point (like the ABS setting) but then when the loop repeats the sample start point doesn't change.




Thanks for this video, i appreciate that you took the time to make it and it makes it much easier to explain what is going on.

You need to turn up the repeats to have it stride more.

The basic concept is everytime the BEAT light flashed you will here the same sequence of transformations on the OG recording.

So if there is say 1 repeat, as it seems in your video, you get the original sounding, then 1 repeat with the start offset (strided?)

The next LOOP will be the same. The stride only affects repeats within the LOOP, it is striding from teh original "sounding" of the note.

So if you want to hear a lot of striding, turn up the repeats. each repeat it will move an additional amount, as determined by the stride knob.

Again as in the above post if you prefer some other behavior we can incorporate it into an update, we are already set to release one late January for 856 so any input willbe considered.

And also sorry for the slow reply we are moving at the moment but by next week we should be back to normal.

RE it worked in the Tourbox differently... Unfortunately since JWARs unit went MIA we can never know for sure, but it is the same binary on both runs i dont think the behavior would have been different.

s


Thanks Scott - that makes sense. I tried it out last night and confirmed that it was working as you described. I suspect that I just stumbled into that setup with the tourbox unit and didn't realize it when I started playing around with this one.

I'll have to think about it some more in terms of what functionality might be most useful. the 856 is kind of a quandary for me - it does some very interesting and unique things, but I'm still trying to figure out how I would likely use it in my current setup.
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