856 for ZELLERSASN



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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby Seance » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:21 pm

For me anyhow, the issue of user interface is pretty important.

Sometimes with software-based solutions there can be lots of
hardware add-ons that provide a wide spectrum of user interfacing.
But... sometimes with guitar it is better to have a piece of hardware
that is self-contained and designed to work with a person who is
also at least some of the time holding and playing a guitar with their
hands.

I haven't had the pleasure of trying an 856 for ZELLERSASN, but the
potentiality that more interface points are available is a tantalizing
possibility. With the CT5, for instance, I love what it does, but sometimes
wish that the toggles were actually stomp switches.

I might be in the minority, but a larger enclosure with more easily stomped
controls is more alluring than a super compact Swiss-army knife of sonic mayhem.

But guitarists are a picky, decentralized lot who want it all in a tidy package for
a slim sum of money and with ultimate control and yet simple intuitive interface,
all of which is often not possible at the same time for the same pedal.

And as for software solutions, there are folks out there (some even small-scale
operations, some large-scale) who are already focusing on that soft approach.
Nice to have some creative pedal-based solutions out there. So many options!
And compared to how rack mount stuff was in the 1980s, all this stuff is pretty
affordable (even though some rack mount stuff remains untouched even today
in terms of functionality/sound quality/tweakability, etc.)
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby multi_s » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:46 pm

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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby cherler » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:47 pm

Seance wrote:I haven't had the pleasure of trying an 856 for ZELLERSASN, but the
potentiality that more interface points are available is a tantalizing
possibility. With the CT5, for instance, I love what it does, but sometimes
wish that the toggles were actually stomp switches.

I might be in the minority, but a larger enclosure with more easily stomped
controls is more alluring than a super compact Swiss-army knife of sonic mayhem.)


I totally feel you on this, I love big pedals with all the stomps. A Ct5 in the same enclosure as the 856 but with an extra stomp in the middle for switching mode would be killer, especially with transcendence. Not that I don't love my Ct5 as it is though.
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby Inner Vegas » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:09 pm

I'm not just here to bitch and cry, but I think it's important to air these grievances since this is presented as the official MTA forum. There's definitely a bit of a fanboy vibe around here - bunch of cheerleaders who white-knight MTA whenever anyone has a hint of a complaint. That's not constructive; don't be yes-men. MTA is not your friend - keep them honest and do them the service of allowing them to face complaints.

I've been in this game a long, long time - I was actually the chief designer on a piece of gear that probably 30% of the people here use and the other 70% want. My complaints are totally valid and worth airing.

Many - most! - brilliant designers are terrible businesspeople. Don Buchla, who Scott's sensibilities remind me the most of, was probably king of that. Most of Buchla's designs are backwards, don't play by the rules, and seem like they were laid out by an alien who has studied humans but not necessarily walked among them. This puts his devices, like MTA's, in a class of their own - there's simply nothing else out there like them, and they make you think differently and thus lead you to places you wouldn't normally go.

Many of MTA's practices are Bad Business - not nefariously, not because anyone's a dick, but because this is a dude making pedals at his kitchen table and not really thinking about the whole business part. But it still sucks to be on the receiving end. I bought a CT5 under two years ago and yet the current CT5 - again, not marked at a "CT6" or "mk2" or whatever, the same pedal at the same price - is easily TWICE the device that I got, yet these cool new features aren't backwards compatible to mine. Yet without me (and everyone else) buying that batch, MTA wouldn't have the $$ to operate and make a newer batch. We're the founders, the core investors, the trustees - MTA is here today because we threw down our cash. It feels like a slap in the face that all of the johnny-come-latelys are getting twice the features that we got for our early loyalty, but we can't even upgrade our "old" (16 months old?) versions. Bad Business.

I like the 856 a lot - I've had it for almost a month now and used it every day - but the interface is a disaster. I'm sorry for my rudeness when referring to it as "designed by a blind person," but it's the most obtuse, backwards, illogical interface I've ever encountered on a piece of gear - including the Buchla synthesizers I mentioned earlier. Even when you completely understand how it works and how to do what you want to do, it's so easy to get tricked because related functions aren't grouped together and the whole thing operates like a Rubick's Cube - one rocker switch on the complete opposite side of the box will completely change how a knob on the other side of the box behaves. In the heat of the moment, or on stage, or in the groove, or etc. the 856 constantly leaves you scratching your head, not understanding why it's behaving the way it is, and why it isn't behaving the way you expect. Only once you unravel the mystery - or pull the plug - do you realize that the illogical, obtuse interface has tricked you once again because of an illogical interaction between a switch and a knob that directly interact but aren't grouped anywhere near each other, with copious other interdependent controls in between. I still see it as a kind of cool challenge - I've never backed down from any crazy gear, and I owned a freaking Kyma system - but realizing that the entire thing was just overhauled to no longer be a confusing disaster but instead to work like something that was designed by and for a human feels like a kick in the balls when i just bought one. I don't think anyone is Obama, or a dickhead, but I sure wish I had known "oh by the way the entire thing is a huge mess so it's already been redesigned" when I bought a "scratch-n-dent" one. There was zero mention of the overhaul, and it was even implied that these WERE the new batch of 856's, just the blemished ones that weren't ready for prime-time. Bad Business, bro.

I'm not mad, I love you all, and I think Scott is a fucking genius. I'll buy anything he makes other than a boring-ass fuzz pedal. That purpll thing looks phenomenal. But based on these bad business practices, you better believe I (and many others) will think twice before ordering from the first batch so we don't get burned again when the thing is overhauled to work better and have more features for the latecomers who couldn't be bothered to buy in early.
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby cherler » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:17 pm

Inner Vegas wrote:MTA is not your friend


:cry: :cry: :cry: Tell me it isn't so!

Edit:

Inner Vegas wrote:I've been in this game a long, long time - I was actually the chief designer on a piece of gear that probably 30% of the people here use and the other 70% want. My complaints are totally valid and worth airing.


Not trying to be shitty here, but what piece of gear? Just curious.

Also I think it's worth mentioning that abiding by "good business" here as you've defined it could also be stifling. If you spend all your time trying to get the best final version as the first version you never release anything at all. You just end up chasing your tail forever sitting on ideas people would love to play but aren't as big as you could dream up yet. Or on the other end you leave the whole idea behind the Ct5 alone after one release and none of the new stuff is ever brought into being.
Last edited by cherler on Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby Ruiner » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:23 pm

I couldn't even finish reading your post... that is the most entitled consumer sensibility i've ever (partially) read.

You bought a CT5 two years ago and now there's a better one??? no shiiiiiiiit. You bought a macbook pro 2 years ago and now there's a better one? no shiiiiiiiiiiit. You bought a ginsu knife two years ago and ..... it's still just as good as a new one... damn, touche... ginsu knives are solid.

Innovations happen. They have an extremely complicated product and they continue to evolve it rather than only work on something new.

Here's the good news... BECAUSE they continue to revise it, it continues to get firmware upgrades which most can benefit from. Hardware upgrades, not so much but that's what happens when you continue to work on a product. By your logic, the CT5 wouldn't even exist yet because the haven't finalized the best possible CT5 yet. It's also the users that provide a lot of the feedback that help make the pedal better.

Besides all of this, it's Montreal Assembly and there's a place called Reverb or eBay where you can almost always get your money back on these if not much more depending when you sell it. In fact, i bet you could sell that blemished version you bought for a profit and wait for the release of the new one.

Calling out someone's layout or design work is just a dick move. There's seems to be a ton of people out there using it and putting out great content with it. Maybe there's easier layouts to understand? That's a viable thing to bring up and it's been addressed and seems to be coming.......

ehhhh fahgetboutit. Not worth it. :poke:
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby baremountain » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:35 pm

Inner Vegas wrote:I don't think anyone is Obama

I disagree with this statement and I can think of at least one former US president who would as well.

Also :idk: :idk: :idk: I sat down in front of the 856 for 2 hours when I first got it and started transforming loops purposefully after learning it for about that long. Can you fuck up and forget to switch which note or pitch group you're changing? Hell yeah. That's on you though, and not Scott? Having a certain switch next to a certain knob isn't going to be some cure-all never-forget-to-think-about-what-your-doing lifesaving hack.
Also I just want to point out your Ct5 has to be older than 14 months because Feb '16 is when the September '15 preorders shipped, and those were Rev K (source: I own one). An 18+ month old pedal is just that. It's not like Scott won't fix it if it breaks. You paid your money for what was in the box when you bought it, and you were happy with that then. If you're no longer happy, sell it & buy a new one when they relist. If you are still happy with it then be happy that someone else has some cool features that they can do shit with. Shitposting here isn't winning anyone over.
Inner Vegas wrote:I don't think anyone is Obama
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby DRodriguez » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:43 pm

This is absolutely the right place to air grievances for the product. That's one of the things the forums are for. I just don't agree with completely with yours. I've aired a couple of my own here such as the lack of midi sync and midi out. One is in the process of being fixed (and has been for new releases including yours) the other has had improvement, but not where I'd like it to be.

Would you rather he go purely business model? He definitely is not doing what is best on a purely business standpoint, but it usually ends up being better for most customers.

Say he released a Count to 6 or 7 and so on every year? The new customers would feel cheated if he updated the older ones to the extent that he could. That would really leave all the old models in the dust without updates. Better for Scott, less confusing to a consumer, but actually damaging to them in the larger scope of things.

The whole update thing really started from suggestions, and requests in this forum. Scott was saying that he could in theory update pedals and would charge for custom or modified firmware. And then he just kind of did them for free.

In the end, it's all up to Scott and the style of business he wants to run. It, at least outwardly, seems like he can be plenty successful as is and isn't hurting for new customers.

And I agree the interface is not the easiest to use for everyone, but I mainly control it externally. So I'm glad that is being updated for future users.

Inner Vegas wrote:I've been in this game a long, long time - I was actually the chief designer on a piece of gear that probably 30% of the people here use and the other 70% want. My complaints are totally valid and worth airing.

I think this is probably scott, he was cheif designer on the Ct5.
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby codetocontra » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:03 pm

Bad Business might need to be the name of the next MTA pedal.
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby $harkToootth » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:05 pm

codetocontra wrote:Bad Business might need to be the name of the next MTA pedal.

"Patty Mullen takes me from a ball peen to a sledge" -The Great Velvet Hammer
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby multi_s » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:30 pm

Inner Vegas wrote:I'm not just here to bitch and cry, but I think it's important to air these grievances since this is presented as the official MTA forum. There's definitely a bit of a fanboy vibe around here - bunch of cheerleaders who white-knight MTA whenever anyone has a hint of a complaint. That's not constructive; don't be yes-men. MTA is not your friend - keep them honest and do them the service of allowing them to face complaints.


Certainly you are more than free to air whatever grievance you wish and no one here has said otherwise. I would even agree it is important and the forum is a lot of how we collect feedback both good and bad.

Other people are also welcome to air their opinion about your grievance. This is the official forum as you say, certainly someone in the game as long as you state would expect a bit of blow back form other users? (or at least a few "fan boys" ). Have you ever used the internet?

Inner Vegas wrote:I've been in this game a long, long time - I was actually the chief designer on a piece of gear that probably 30% of the people here use and the other 70% want. My complaints are totally valid and worth airing.

Many - most! - brilliant designers are terrible businesspeople. Don Buchla, who Scott's sensibilities remind me the most of, was probably king of that. Most of Buchla's designs are backwards, don't play by the rules, and seem like they were laid out by an alien who has studied humans but not necessarily walked among them. This puts his devices, like MTA's, in a class of their own - there's simply nothing else out there like them, and they make you think differently and thus lead you to places you wouldn't normally go.


while i sense quite a bit of backhandedness there, it is overall very flattering, thank you.

Inner Vegas wrote:Many of MTA's practices are Bad Business - not nefariously, not because anyone's a dick, but because this is a dude making pedals at his kitchen table and not really thinking about the whole business part. But it still sucks to be on the receiving end. I bought a CT5 under two years ago and yet the current CT5 - again, not marked at a "CT6" or "mk2" or whatever, the same pedal at the same price - is easily TWICE the device that I got, yet these cool new features aren't backwards compatible to mine. Yet without me (and everyone else) buying that batch, MTA wouldn't have the $$ to operate and make a newer batch. We're the founders, the core investors, the trustees - MTA is here today because we threw down our cash. It feels like a slap in the face that all of the johnny-come-latelys are getting twice the features that we got for our early loyalty, but we can't even upgrade our "old" (16 months old?) versions. Bad Business.


Here disagree with you mostly. I do not think it is twice the pedal it was 2 years ago. Also the pedal was cheaper 2 years ago. Maybe as low as 200 free shipping, im not sure exactly which period you bought yours. For your early loyalty you get just that, ability to use the pedal 16 months earlier etc. Again as i said in my first reply i can see where you are coming from, but it comes up short of me feeling like we are conducting bad business. You are however entitled to your opinion and i appreciate you taking the time to share it.

Count to 5 is not the first pedal i made. While i appreciate everyone's support, from all past periods of my endeavors, i don;t agree at all with the implication that it is strictly the people who bought a rev j count to five that have brought me to this point. It is absurd. It may be that you never heard of my company before ct5 gained some momentum, im not sure but think of how all those people feel that supported me before you came around when now i don't even make updates for WSOU anymore. Where were you when i needed you most bro? (joking, but maybe you see my point, its liek you have jsut decided that when you bought something that was the moment we became a real company etc, absurd.)

Also i already said in a prev response to you that rev j will likely get an update after the next major point release for k. But you don;t seem to respond to my responses, did you even see it?

Inner Vegas wrote:I like the 856 a lot - I've had it for almost a month now and used it every day - but the interface is a disaster. I'm sorry for my rudeness when referring to it as "designed by a blind person," but it's the most obtuse, backwards, illogical interface I've ever encountered on a piece of gear - including the Buchla synthesizers I mentioned earlier. Even when you completely understand how it works and how to do what you want to do, it's so easy to get tricked because related functions aren't grouped together and the whole thing operates like a Rubick's Cube - one rocker switch on the complete opposite side of the box will completely change how a knob on the other side of the box behaves. In the heat of the moment, or on stage, or in the groove, or etc. the 856 constantly leaves you scratching your head, not understanding why it's behaving the way it is, and why it isn't behaving the way you expect. Only once you unravel the mystery - or pull the plug - do you realize that the illogical, obtuse interface has tricked you once again because of an illogical interaction between a switch and a knob that directly interact but aren't grouped anywhere near each other, with copious other interdependent controls in between. I still see it as a kind of cool challenge - I've never backed down from any crazy gear, and I owned a freaking Kyma system - but realizing that the entire thing was just overhauled to no longer be a confusing disaster but instead to work like something that was designed by and for a human feels like a kick in the balls when i just bought one. I don't think anyone is Obama, or a dickhead, but I sure wish I had known "oh by the way the entire thing is a huge mess so it's already been redesigned" when I bought a "scratch-n-dent" one. There was zero mention of the overhaul, and it was even implied that these WERE the new batch of 856's, just the blemished ones that weren't ready for prime-time. Bad Business, bro.


If the layout is so bad that it is really killing you i would suggest to either follow someones suggestion to re sell it and wait or perhaps to make a midi interface using pure data or supercollider since every parpameter (and more) is available via midi. As you say, you are not intimidated by crazy gear, why not max it out with an interface and a laptop etc? Maybe you already have these tools available...

Inner Vegas wrote:I'm not mad, I love you all, and I think Scott is a fucking genius. I'll buy anything he makes other than a boring-ass fuzz pedal. That purpll thing looks phenomenal. But based on these bad business practices, you better believe I (and many others) will think twice before ordering from the first batch so we don't get burned again when the thing is overhauled to work better and have more features for the latecomers who couldn't be bothered to buy in early.


That's a totally respectable position to have, really with any tech, not just pedals made in a kitchen.

Anyway we love you too man so thanks for joining the forum. :group:


s
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby Ruiner » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:56 pm

multi_s wrote:That's a totally respectable position to have, really with any tech, not just pedals made in a kitchen.


dammit... i was wondering how that piece of bologna got inside my CT5.


It was good after a long session of jamming though and a few beers so thanks. It's the extra things that keep me coming back.
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby $harkToootth » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:03 pm

I am totally okay with getting "burned" on the first batch of PURPLL. Everyone should stay back so I absorb the burn first. Hash tag burned hash tag soy boy hash tag pump and dump hash tag boner chummy chatty you name it.
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby Seance » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:27 pm

I think there is a constructive way to air grievances/wishes/reactions with/to/about a pedal and/or the
logic of that pedal's interface. Chastising people for liking a pedal, and insulting the person who designed
the pedal are likely not the most constructive ways to engage in constructive criticism or hold a civil conversation.

But it is the internet. So I guess some people are more familiar with things turning into a lumpy shit-show.
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Re: 856 for ZELLERSASN

Postby MrNovember » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:06 pm

multi_s wrote:
Graeme777 wrote:Anyone got a hint or an educated guess on a release date ? Hopefully within around 8 days I know :)

It will not be that soon unfortunately bc we have had quite a few hiccups in the shop since 2017 showed up. You can watch this forum or sign up for newsletter and we will announce when we have a better idea. 1-2 months min, hopefully not more.

I'm actually pretty happy to hear that the new 856 rev is a couple months away. I definitely want to buy one, but I need to figure some things out first.

Also, I have a Count to 5 from the first batch with original firmware that I've never bothered to update. I still love it and I doubt I'll update the firmware any time.
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