New CITES export regulations for ALL rosewoods in 2017



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New CITES export regulations for ALL rosewoods in 2017

Postby oscillofuzz » Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:12 pm

A new regulation takes effect on January 2, 2017 that calls for documentation when shipping instruments internationally that contain any amount of any kind of rosewood or certain types of bubinga.


Read it all and weep, or at least that's what I did: :cry:

https://reverb.com/news/new-cites-regulations-for-all-rosewood-species
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Re: New CITES export regulations for ALL rosewoods in 2017

Postby rickenbastard » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:27 pm

As a fan of maple fingerboards this makes me very happy!
Hopefully means we'll see more maple variants of instruments we love.
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Re: New CITES export regulations for ALL rosewoods in 2017

Postby Chankgeez » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:29 pm

I think they were already going in that direction. "Roasted maple" is cheaper than tropical woods and it's usually mo' local as well.
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Re: New CITES export regulations for ALL rosewoods in 2017

Postby Mudfuzz » Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:39 pm

about freak'n time.
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Re: New CITES export regulations for ALL rosewoods in 2017

Postby oscillofuzz » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:19 am

I don't know guys, as someone who lives in a small ass country, this is definitely going to make life more difficult. The best selection of guitars/basses that can be had in The Netherlands are offered by Thomann, which is based in Germany. And this is surely going to cause an increase in costs (not to mention transit time) for rosewood necked instruments as Thomann will have to fill out all the paperwork prior to shipping. That combined with the currently weak Euro, even Mexican Fenders are going to be become ridiculously expensive, I fear. And maybe the worst part is that this also applies to second hand instruments. Meaning: buying vintage instruments is now prohibitively expensive for those in small countries...
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Re: New CITES export regulations for ALL rosewoods in 2017

Postby UglyCasanova » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:26 am

I don't mind this, actually.
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Re: New CITES export regulations for ALL rosewoods in 2017

Postby odontophobia » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:39 am

We need more companies doing aluminum necks. It's the obvious solution.
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Re: New CITES export regulations for ALL rosewoods in 2017

Postby Disarm D'arcy » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:09 am

oscillofuzz wrote:I don't know guys, as someone who lives in a small ass country, this is definitely going to make life more difficult. The best selection of guitars/basses that can be had in The Netherlands are offered by Thomann, which is based in Germany. And this is surely going to cause an increase in costs (not to mention transit time) for rosewood necked instruments as Thomann will have to fill out all the paperwork prior to shipping. That combined with the currently weak Euro, even Mexican Fenders are going to be become ridiculously expensive, I fear. And maybe the worst part is that this also applies to second hand instruments. Meaning: buying vintage instruments is now prohibitively expensive for those in small countries...


How CITES works in the EU according to regulation 338/97 is a lot simpler than you make it out to be. Thomann will have to fill paperwork when placing an order to a manufacturer that uses material subject to said regulation (prior importing said material in the EU). Once that order ends up in the EU, it can travel freely and a custom form will only be needed in order to re-export it outside of the EU. You can move around / ship said item within the EU with no difficulty, as long as documentation proving the legitimate detention of a restricted materials can be produced if asked for by a customs agent (e.g. a receipt of your original purchase). And even this scenario is an over statement, Thomann buying stuff from importers and not importing themselves, at least for most of the big name products. Don't panic. The consequences on you will be minimal to non-existent.

As for the Euro being "weak" compared to the dollar and it being shit. It might be true if you're a consumer buying a guitar manufactured in the US. it might be just what you need if you work in an industry which previously had to be 30% more competitive in the eurozone just to offer the same prices as a USD competitor, just because parity was what it was. Look at the glass half full. You have more chance of buying an albeit pricier imported guitar if you have a job than if you don't. And for what it's worth, if you still want to be able to buy a guitar manufactured with rosewood in the future, a CITES regulation is what you need. A certificate is a small price to pay to make sure endangered species (we're talking extinction being a clear possibility for CITES to be applicable) is a small price to pay.
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Re: New CITES export regulations for ALL rosewoods in 2017

Postby oscillofuzz » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:29 am

I honestly didn't know the EU is considered a singular entity in this case (as there are also clear cases where it still isn't, as fellow EUans probably know). Definitely makes things less complicated, however importing vintage/used instruments from the States or Japan still seems unnecessarily complicated when these new rules go into effect if you ask me (given these are pre-existing instruments and thus the most durable/environmentally friendly purchase option, in theory).

And please, let's not get into a political discussion about relative value of currencies or extinction of endangered species, but of course I am reasonable enough to understand that either situation has it's pro's and cons depending on the context it is applied to. Given that The Netherlands exports a lot of goods, a Euro that is lower in value is supposedly beneficial to me on a national scale, but on a personal level, all it means is that if I want to buy an EGC500 30" (because odontophobia is right, aluminum is the future :lol: ) now vs. ~2 years ago, I'm going to end up spending between €4000-5000 by the time it gets to my door instead of somewhere around 3k.
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Re: New CITES export regulations for ALL rosewoods in 2017

Postby Chankgeez » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:49 am

Legal mumbo jumbo aside (I'm lookin' at you, D'arcy). This is pretty much it:

Disarm D'arcy wrote: And for what it's worth, if you still want to be able to buy a guitar manufactured with rosewood in the future, a CITES regulation is what you need. A certificate is a small price to pay to make sure endangered species (we're talking extinction being a clear possibility for CITES to be applicable) is a small price to pay.


Guitars are only a small fraction of what tropical hardwoods are used for. :D ( & btw, I like rosewood fretboards better than most others.) :idk:
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Re: New CITES export regulations for ALL rosewoods in 2017

Postby Disarm D'arcy » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:52 am

Bear in mind this is in theory. In practicality, less than 1% of shipping containers crossing the EU borders are ever searched. Less than 1% of parcels coming in are taxed by customs. Determining the dark wood they see is restricted is their burden. For vintage stuff, there's a good chance the market will catch up quickly because the prices only go as high if you're willing to cater to the most deep pocketed buyers.

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Re: New CITES export regulations for ALL rosewoods in 2017

Postby cheesecats » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:54 am

In the US, one also has to consider the Lacey Act, which deals with illegal harvesting. Gibson was slammed by this. Generally, individuals traveling with their own instruments are OK (informal entries).

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/plant_health/lacey_act/downloads/faq.pdf

http://repository.jmls.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2253&context=lawreview

https://www.fws.gov/news/blog/index.cfm/2011/9/22/where-we-stand-the-lacey-act-and-our-law-enforcement-work
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Re: New CITES export regulations for ALL rosewoods in 2017

Postby Chankgeez » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:03 am

Disarm D'arcy wrote:
Dedicated to you Chankgeez.


:hug:

Yeah, I mean, what we're collectively doing to our forests and natural resources is ultimately unsustainable. :cry:
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Re: New CITES export regulations for ALL rosewoods in 2017

Postby antennafarm » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:48 am

Have there been any solid, blind tests done with richlite vs rosewood (or ebony for that matter)?
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Re: New CITES export regulations for ALL rosewoods in 2017

Postby waltdogg » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:43 am

as long as there are dudes like "gibson glenn" still around guitar companies will not move ahead.
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