Double tracking pedals,anyone use them in live performance?



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Double tracking pedals,anyone use them in live performance?

Postby shortfuse » Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:56 pm

Personally I like the idea of a double tracking pedal but have yet to use one. I have watched the videos of many of them and it's really hard to tell from a video how useful it might actually be in adding to one's overall tone and shape and then there's whether or not you are going to run it stereo and are you going to use multiple amps. The strymon seems like a bit of overkill to me in that I don't want or need anything that sounds like chorus nor do I need another tape delay, cool concept of options for those that want the added features, the keeley to me seems like the only other really good option but I am still undecided as to whether this is something that is really going to add to my overall sound in a way that makes sense to add it to my pedal board. I would assume if I did I would want it at the end of my pedal chain running stereo through my effects loop split between my two speakers. (I play an orange rocker 32 2x10 with stereo effects loop where I can essentially split my signal to each speaker)

I also wonder putting it at the end of my chain how it will affect and react with time effects and such before it. Right now my only stereo pedal I am currently using is my ADD Data Error. I am in the midst of trying to build my first pedal board and another side of that is trying to figure out a blender option that makes sense since it would be nice to be able to run some pedals in parallel and some in series with order switching capabilities. But that's another post I guess. I would love to hear anyone's thoughts or direct experiences with any of the double tracking pedals out there!
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Re: Double tracking pedals,anyone use them in live performan

Postby voerking » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:21 pm

i've used a Mimiq with the effect set at it's lowest point, running into two amps. i just left it on all the time for a wider stereo spread. it worked well for that use. dialing the effect in to be more noticeable always sounds a bit too "effected" to me, like sort of a lame chorus. used subtly, it can sound good.
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Re: Double tracking pedals,anyone use them in live performan

Postby shortfuse » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:30 pm

Cool, thanks, that was kind my thought. Do you like the mimiq? I am leaning toward the keeley over the mimiq based on reviews. Really the mimiq, the keeley and the strymon seem to be the only real contenders out there from what I have seen!
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Re: Double tracking pedals,anyone use them in live performan

Postby chromandre » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:32 pm

This is just my experience, your mileage may vary obviously but I found when you have 2 separate amps, the stereo dry/wet short delay trick doesn't actually do anything at live volumes! short delay sounds much more convincing for double tracked to me as a mono effect for any time you are going to bend the strings it makes lovely phasey dips but I would turn it off for rhythm/chords. I also found if you get a subtle bouncy PN2 style stereo trem going, it produces the illusion that your left/right amps 2 people playing with slightly different picking technique random fluctuation.

and then I did try using a stereo effect return on a single JC120 amp, basically no stereo effects were heard at all, I suppose if you mic them up and split it that way it becomes stereo but the speakers of a single cab are so close together that the only stereo effect you can really get in my opinion is the dry/wet chorus.
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Re: Double tracking pedals,anyone use them in live performan

Postby omarwhite » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:33 pm

voerking wrote:i've used a Mimiq with the effect set at it's lowest point, running into two amps. i just left it on all the time for a wider stereo spread. it worked well for that use. dialing the effect in to be more noticeable always sounds a bit too "effected" to me, like sort of a lame chorus. used subtly, it can sound good.


I used to have the stereo Mimiq and also felt like things sounded a bit to processed/digital/effected. didn't run it at a low point however. initially bought one because I heard Aaron Turner uses a Deco, and figured I could get similar results with a Mimiq. I was wrong.

I would like to revisit the pedal now, however, and run it at it's minimum setting and see what results.
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Re: Double tracking pedals,anyone use them in live performan

Postby shortfuse » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:39 pm

chromandre wrote:This is just my experience, your mileage may vary obviously but I found when you have 2 separate amps, the stereo dry/wet short delay trick doesn't actually do anything at live volumes! short delay sounds much more convincing for double tracked to me as a mono effect for any time you are going to bend the strings it makes lovely phasey dips but I would turn it off for rhythm/chords. I also found if you get a subtle bouncy PN2 style stereo trem going, it produces the illusion that your left/right amps 2 people playing with slightly different picking technique random fluctuation.

and then I did try using a stereo effect return on a single JC120 amp, basically no stereo effects were heard at all, I suppose if you mic them up and split it that way it becomes stereo but the speakers of a single cab are so close together that the only stereo effect you can really get in my opinion is the dry/wet chorus.


Yeah I love this amp and it's ability to split the signal to each speaker but I wonder if having two amps to successfully utilize this live will likely be necessary since trying to mic both speakers is likely to cause phase issues at the very least.
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Re: Double tracking pedals,anyone use them in live performan

Postby voerking » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:16 am

shortfuse wrote:Do you like the mimiq?

it's fine. the way i use it, it's barely noticeable...
listen to this track:
https://terms.bandcamp.com/track/heal-my-borings-2
the guitar until 0:45, and from 2:33 until the end is just one pass of guitar running into two amps via the Mimiq set at minimum.
it's subtle, but it adds *something*
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Re: Double tracking pedals,anyone use them in live performan

Postby oscillofuzz » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:20 am

shortfuse wrote:Yeah I love this amp and it's ability to split the signal to each speaker but I wonder if having two amps to successfully utilize this live will likely be necessary since trying to mic both speakers is likely to cause phase issues at the very least.


What kind of issues are you afraid might happen? When close mic'ing in similar positions and also panning through the PA I don't foresee an unworkable outcome. I work monitors semi-regularly at this venue where the FoH engineers insists on mic'ing up two adjacent speakers per 4x12 cab, usually with an SM57 and e906 on the edge of dustcap and cone, and then pans them on the desk. It's mostly a metal/punk venue and often there are 2 guitarists, so each PA channel ends up receiving output from both an SM57 and an e906, both not from the same cab. We have had at least one notable band come in before with a single guitarist playing through 2 amps/cabs with a doubler pedal (either a Mimiq or the Keeley, I can't remember, but definitely not the Strymon), where we applied the same mic and panning techniques and there were no issues with sound quality through the FoH, it just sounded like more guitar than one person would normally produce. Through monitors however it was better to use just the dry signal to give everyone the most accurate representation of the guitarist's timing.

voerking wrote:
shortfuse wrote:Do you like the mimiq?

it's fine. the way i use it, it's barely noticeable...
listen to this track:
https://terms.bandcamp.com/track/heal-my-borings-2
the guitar until 0:45, and from 2:33 until the end is just one pass of guitar running into two amps via the Mimiq set at minimum.
it's subtle, but it adds *something*


I'm not sure if I can tell the difference between doubler on and off in those sections through my macbook's speakers, but I do really like the track! :joy:
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Re: Double tracking pedals,anyone use them in live performan

Postby shortfuse » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:42 pm

oscillofuzz wrote:
shortfuse wrote:Yeah I love this amp and it's ability to split the signal to each speaker but I wonder if having two amps to successfully utilize this live will likely be necessary since trying to mic both speakers is likely to cause phase issues at the very least.


What kind of issues are you afraid might happen? When close mic'ing in similar positions and also panning through the PA I don't foresee an unworkable outcome. I work monitors semi-regularly at this venue where the FoH engineers insists on mic'ing up two adjacent speakers per 4x12 cab, usually with an SM57 and e906 on the edge of dustcap and cone, and then pans them on the desk. It's mostly a metal/punk venue and often there are 2 guitarists, so each PA channel ends up receiving output from both an SM57 and an e906, both not from the same cab. We have had at least one notable band come in before with a single guitarist playing through 2 amps/cabs with a doubler pedal (either a Mimiq or the Keeley, I can't remember, but definitely not the Strymon), where we applied the same mic and panning techniques and there were no issues with sound quality through the FoH, it just sounded like more guitar than one person would normally produce. Through monitors however it was better to use just the dry signal to give everyone the most accurate representation of the guitarist's timing.

voerking wrote:
shortfuse wrote:Do you like the mimiq?

it's fine. the way i use it, it's barely noticeable...
listen to this track:
https://terms.bandcamp.com/track/heal-my-borings-2
the guitar until 0:45, and from 2:33 until the end is just one pass of guitar running into two amps via the Mimiq set at minimum.
it's subtle, but it adds *something*


I'm not sure if I can tell the difference between doubler on and off in those sections through my macbook's speakers, but I do really like the track! :joy:



Sure I understand what you are saying but that is using two amps, this is a single combo amp where I can separate the speakers, having two mics, one on each speaker with the speakers and mics so close together, you wouldn't see any potential phase issues with that?
Last edited by shortfuse on Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Double tracking pedals,anyone use them in live performan

Postby qersty » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:17 am

shortfuse wrote:
oscillofuzz wrote:
shortfuse wrote:Yeah I love this amp and it's ability to split the signal to each speaker but I wonder if having two amps to successfully utilize this live will likely be necessary since trying to mic both speakers is likely to cause phase issues at the very least.


What kind of issues are you afraid might happen? When close mic'ing in similar positions and also panning through the PA I don't foresee an unworkable outcome. I work monitors semi-regularly at this venue where the FoH engineers insists on mic'ing up two adjacent speakers per 4x12 cab, usually with an SM57 and e906 on the edge of dustcap and cone, and then pans them on the desk. It's mostly a metal/punk venue and often there are 2 guitarists, so each PA channel ends up receiving output from both an SM57 and an e906, both not from the same cab. We have had at least one notable band come in before with a single guitarist playing through 2 amps/cabs with a doubler pedal (either a Mimiq or the Keeley, I can't remember, but definitely not the Strymon), where we applied the same mic and panning techniques and there were no issues with sound quality through the FoH, it just sounded like more guitar than one person would normally produce. Through monitors however it was better to use just the dry signal to give everyone the most accurate representation of the guitarist's timing.

voerking wrote:
shortfuse wrote:Do you like the mimiq?

it's fine. the way i use it, it's barely noticeable...
listen to this track:
https://terms.bandcamp.com/track/heal-my-borings-2
the guitar until 0:45, and from 2:33 until the end is just one pass of guitar running into two amps via the Mimiq set at minimum.
it's subtle, but it adds *something*


I'm not sure if I can tell the difference between doubler on and off in those sections through my macbook's speakers, but I do really like the track! :joy:



Sure I understand what you are saying but that is using two cans, this is what can where I can separate the speakers, having two mics, one on each speaker with the speakers and mics so close together, you wouldn't see any potential phase issues with that?

Unless you have two identical rigs with identical microphones there will be phase misalignment. The solution is simply to try to adjust the microphones and check the polarity, this will be extra work for your sound person. However the double tracking effect in itself is caused by phase shift and it's not linear nonetheless. If you are going to have the effect on all the time the phase shift may benefit the widening. Phase "issues" hasn't got to be bad and alot of sounds is based on it.

I use an eventide pitchfactor (micro pitch algo) or simply a short stereo delay for stereo widening and it's very apparent, I like to turn it back alot. I only do it at home though with cans on so it may be different coming out of a PA in a busy live mix. I know however that Matt Weed used a DD7 for doubling live when Rosetta had only one guitar and he tends not to be a snake-oil guys
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Re: Double tracking pedals,anyone use them in live performan

Postby alexsga » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:18 am

ive had good results from Zoom's Detune algorithm with my band
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Re: Double tracking pedals,anyone use them in live performan

Postby voerking » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:56 am

oscillofuzz wrote:I'm not sure if I can tell the difference between doubler on and off in those sections through my macbook's speakers, but I do really like the track! :joy:

thanks! just to clarify, the stereo Mimiq tracks are throughout the entire song. it's the basic guitar track(s) of the song, but there are some overdubs that come in on top of it, as well (during the time period between the two sections i mentioned).
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